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Comments
Again:
The service was cancelled, terminated and closed ~2 weeks prior to the payment.
I do not have any active service there nor do I intend to order one again.
Yeah, I guess different people chooses different battles.
Although I know for a fact that if I came to you and said,
"I'm very sorry for the hassle, but apparently I have not yet cancelled the automatic paypal payment for this service even though it is cancelled since a while.
I have just cancelled the payment, but too late - transaction is already through: XXXXXXXX
Could you please reimburse that payment?"
You would have refunded me based on how you've interacted with me for the years I've had a service with you. I get when a untitled cunt comes forth and threatens with a dispute and calling the company a thief one would naturally react differently. But come on could one even ask more nicely than @southy already did lol.
See this what stinks the provider should be kind enough to refund the payment. But, the use of fraudrecords in this manner is totally wrong. 99 perecent of the time the provider will say chargeback or disputed payment but won't list the real reason why. So you try to buy from another provider flagged and have to explain the situation. Fraud record shouldn't be used a manner to hurt people that ask for a refund due to error.
Mod edit: I stand corrected on the matter fraudrecord was not mentioned by the provider or op. I do apologize. Ignore my post.
So many drama threads on Friday morning.
What a good day.
In fact, I believe a "radical" point of view such as @AnthonySmith would open the door to abuse:
The hoster just needs to decide to go out of business and cancel all subscriptions 1 hour before all the BF deals from last year renew.
Only few people will be able to react in time and cancel paypal.
So lots of payments will go throught and - based on Anthonys point of view - will be lost for the customers.
Host walks away with tons of money without rendering services.
That is why european law tries to find a balance between both interests.
But that's just my view as "victim" :-) of course :-)
You see my view as radical, I see yours as the view of a lazy person that cant run his own life, somewhere in the middle is the truth I expect.
Out of interest, how would you feel if the term was, refunds for over payments will only be made if claimed within 28 days after payment?
Let me first say that I am a registered company and my VAT number is posted on every invoice sent (at least since the name change to mrvm).
Next, let me try to respond with my stand on a few points that was brought up in this thread.
When you signed up you were notified that money sent that isn't related to an invoice for a service would be considered prepayment and added as credit to your account.
As my venture as a VPS provider started with lowendspirit, it is no secret that I looked and copied much (first version was pretty much a copy/paste) from @AnthonySmith terms of service.
As been discussed over and over again here and on most other hosting forums, the PayPal subscription is YOUR responsibility.
You were informed multiple times to cancel that subscription if you had one.
I even sent a dedicated email to ALL customers to cancel all subscriptions when the name changed, in a way to avoid this type of incidents.
PayPal keeps the transactional fee after a refund which is a fixed amount (depending on the amount of payments PayPal handles for the provider) plus a percentage.
Not to mention the unpaid additional work to update the bookkeeping.
In theory, the provider could eventually end up in the red as the provider actually pays to send the money back to the customer.
And my personal opinion is "why should I pay for someone else mistake?"
Your exact words were "Please refund or I need to escalate"
As informational your words were, I informed you that you would no longer be a customer of mine if you did. I see no point in having a business relationship if a PayPal claim/dispute is opened.
Any serious business would honor the agreement that was made on the initial signup.
I can only wish more people would do what you do, and checked their pre-approved payments plan with PayPal or any other payment processor.
I never mentioned FraudRecord and would never report someone on these conditions.
I run my WHMCS with InceptionHosting as I trust him as a Provider and he runs a good service. I do not resell any services of InceptionHosting.
That is correct that there is a function in WHMCS that will try to cancel any subscription connected to a service, most of the times it will fail because on how WHMCS stores the subscription ID, ir. not in the same format as PayPal.
The only other way, that I know of is to manually log in to PayPal and cancel the subscription that way.
Honestly, that is not something I do on a regular basis as I expect the customer to handle that part.
Correct, I am Swedish.
No, the provider doesn't do it as it a choice from the customer to set it up and maintain the subscription.
Paypal refunds the fee on the refund itself, not the initial payment. See above about the sum of the fee.
As ending words, the money is still yours, it is on your account for future services. I also gave you the option to sell the credit to someone else and I would transfer said credit to that other customer.
To be fair, life is too busy.
Women to mess with, people to scam for, kids to please with expensive phones and tablets, games to play, gotta eat, pee, poop, post on LET to vent, etc
ToOooo much to handle.
I wish I could find the email thread I had with racksrv about 10 years ago, I had a dedi I was paying about £150 p/month for, he asked me to cancel my standing order after cancelled the server, I forgot, he refunded me without asking and reminded me again, I forgot again, he emailed asking why and I said to keep the money sorry for the hassle.
Not sure if Jon is here but he can verify this happened, I do live by my own perspective.
Fraudrecord was brought up by a reader of this thread, not by me or @southy. Could we at least drop that from further discussion?
@mikho I stand corrected and i apologize. My post was edited to add that.
Yeah, sorry, I certainly didn't mean to imply you specifically, I was speaking about the generic customer and the generic provider, who "may" report the customer to FraudRecord in such a case. I should have been clearer about this.
simply because you decided to become a company and the laws might require you to take certain risks if you want to be a valid one.
in most countries there are laws due to which companies (might include sole traders and freelancers) might have other obligations then customers. and yes that might cause financial losses which you are expected to plan for.
you also are required to do proper accounting by law not by your customer. if you have more or less effort with this is nothing of concern for your customers and how often their doings forces you to get involved with that.
again, I am sure asking for compensation for the fees occured probably is legally covered, keeping the money as credit without any option to get it refunded certainly not.
even if you say your contract wasn't about services at all but only about buying credits as core element - nearly every law knows regulations about errors in declaration of will, which might lead to contracts being void etc.
if in doubt the cancellation you received would be for the whole contract anyway - unless you provide a seperate option in your control panel for that? so still no legal reason to keep the money.
I bet there is no legal way in europe to wiggle out of this. of course practically people might be able to pretend things to be different as long as no one takes it to court to seek calrification. and that will never happen, because every provider will refund those 30 bucks quickly after the first letter from a law suit came in.
There's the issue of the API cancellation not working for S_ labeled subscriptions (where hosts PayPal account is older than ~2009). This means we - and others - can't cancel subscriptions via API.
This was one of several reasons we moved toward billing agreements several years ago.
He's not a client from the moment he asked to cancel his services with you.
Plus, a mistake from him doesn't entitle you to keep the money.
I don't want to pick a fight with you or anyone really. But just because you add stuff to your TOS, doesn't mean you can enforce it.
The reality is that no one will bother for €30, and that's why providers can cling to the "but I added to the TOS" argument.
As for WHMCS not handling PayPal refunds correctly, that's your problem. This is not a justification of any sorts.
You could also deduct the 0.35 cents and refund everything else. I'd bet no client would hold you against that.
The client is not interested in your sevirces, so when you talk about a credit, you pretty much holding the money hostage.
Wish you all the best, and have nothing against you. And I honestly don't udnerstand why providers fight over a few bucks. I can only guess that bad rep in LET is actually a good thing.
Have you seen a recent thread where a dork wrote a wall of text complaining about losing 0.54 cents after given a (almost) full refund?
0.35cents will be enough for a rage review sooner or later.
If they are unhappy either way, I'd rather keep the entire money.
Nah.
I don't, but let's assume i have a nice little metal mail box, with a key lock.
As i come back home from whatever i do every day and i am still on my doorstep, i see some guy i have nothing to do with comes and puts money inside my mail box, without saying a single word.
I'd try to stop him and question his intentions, but let's assume he is faster than me and he already dropped the money inside.
A second later, the same guy says to me, that he did a mistake, the money weren't intended for me and he wants them back.
I'd open that mail box right away and let him take back his money. I'd also ask him to leave me alone.
Normally i'd expect him to shank me or rob me or something, but still...
I won't take his money and offer him a fictive glass of water, if he sometimes needs it in future instead.
The only money i want are my money and money out of the blue i've done nothing for aren't and are never going to be mine and are always something bad for me.
But let's assume this guy was not careful when he put the money inside my mail box and he kinda bent the lid. Well, i'd still give him back his money because it's not worth the hassle, albeit i am entitled to like 2% of his money, because of damages that i need to prove in future. Of course i'd warn him to leave me alone.
Now, let's say this guy does this again and again and again on purpose just to screw with my mailbox, well, then i'll defend myself.
I'm just going to plug this like I usually do. If you hate paypal subscriptions as a provider, just use this: https://myworks.design/software/whmcs-paypal-billing-agreements-payment-gateway .
Payments are done from whmcs and charges paypal just like a credit card, via billing agreements. If the client cancels in whmcs, it simply stops charging them. You don't even have to deal with IPN issues that happen all the time.
Is this what you use?
Somehow I don't think that LET users would be so enthusiastic about PayPal billing agreements either.
To use this you have to have paypal payments pro and pass an internal credit check. Having any account in collections disqualifies you.
Yes, we have used it for the last 3+ years without issue. It is the only method from which we accept paypal and the majority of payments flow through it.
All you need to do is to enable reference transactions. That can be done on any paypal account. I do not have paypal payments pro. I think you might have gotten them mixed up.
If your service is cancelled but paypal subscription still linked,I suggest you can should open a ticket for refund application directly
It's rude and impolite to directly submit a PayPal dispute without communicate with merchants,Just like if you are not satisfied with shopping at the mall, you didn't negotiate with them but went directly to the court to sue
Remember Dispute is last resort when u have no choice,it's equivalent to prosecution or accusation
This is not quite correct. It is simply the characteristic of the roman civil law, here the condictio, which is hundreds of years old. So that isn't a political thing. It is the same as it was eight hundred years ago because in roman law, to put it simply, you were never be allowed to keep what you didn't work for.
Wtf are you talking about? Did you even read the OP? It's rude and impolite to respond to something you didn't bother to read about.
"I asked for recission of the payment.
This was declined, reasoning "money sent is considered as credit if not paid for a service"."
As a company, I would have refunded the (ex) customer for two reasons:
The right to cancel and refund is the same in all EU countries according to the directive 2011/83/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 October 2011 on consumer rights. Which makes @mikho (as a Swede) obligated to honour all cancellations made within 14 days since the conclusion of the contract (Chapter III, Article 6).
The only thing that can leave doubts is the actual date of the contract conclusion. @mikho can argue that's the date when user signed up and accepted the ToS, but I disagree with that. I have never seen a shop that wouldn't accept a return of good within 14 days since consumer received it. Usually most shops even state that "this advertisement does not constitute an offer within the meaning of the Civil Code" which lets them refuse the order. The date of the contract conclusion is usually the date of the invoice issue(ment?). From what I can see you are accepting the funds and issuing a new invoice which means you agree on signing up a contract. As far as I know PayPal gives you the ability to refuse a payment, but you set it to automatically accept payments and you have to bear the consequences. @Falzo has already pointed that you have to take losses in calculations.
Tomorrow I will contact European Consumer Centre to get clarification on this.
Dear @mikho. No matter how specific your business is (and what WHMCS lets you do), the laws are the same for all businesses. You were the one that decided to incorporate, which obligates you to follow them. Oh and no matter what you put in the Terms of Service and no matter to what customer agrees, there is always the hierarchy of law.
I am pretty sure in this case its over 14 days and additionally I am also 90% sure that there is an exclusionary limit for transactions I think it is around €50 or over before this counts.
When German law is applicable, the 14 days period was extended to one year + 14 days when the customer wasn't informed about his rights and so the term would have never began to run. There is also no exclusionary limit when it comes to the European revocation right as it does not require specific amounts.
But in that case it seems there were no contract concluded and the payment was sent automatically. That said, no revocation right would be applicable, but laws for unjust enrichment. In Germany the term to get the money back would end on 31st December 2021 (at least three years) when the payment was sent in 2018.