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how to achieve 980Gbps ddos protection as a hoster

2

Comments

  • desperanddesperand Member
    edited December 2018

    Okay, I did some investigation, because of hate against BlazingFast.io which I have used and have only good experience with them, like my many friends to whom I have recommended the hoster long time ago.

    I remember, that they never hide their documents, that they are a Ukranian company (at least at a time when I have used them), and they even showed where is hosted their office, etc official documents, etc. And for me was very interesting, what happen, why they start to hide almost everything.

    And you know what? I found the answers.

    The BlazingFast is a target of Russian military propaganda and affected by big money stealing in Russian Central Bank at December 03 2016.

    https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-bank-hack-plot/28153692.html

    Long story short:
    Do you remember the end of 2016? It's a time of massive DDoS attacks and a lot of issues on the internet. Where almost all DDoS attack each other and did massive destructive actions.

    Why did this happen? Because was found an exploit in different software, IoTs etc.
    People start to scan the internet for hacking servers and using them in their botnets to do massive DDoS attacks. A lot of hosters were affected by this. Hell a lot of them from which servers were scans, and which hosts were a source of DDoS attack botnet, or like that.

    I said this exactly, just to illustrate what happens next in the story above.
    And that almost all companies time to time have dirty clients which have or hacked VPS which provoke a DDoS attack, or sending spam, etc. It's a common thing on almost all hosters, which identify illegal activities on their node and terminate accounts and stopping it.

    But the interesting part is next.

    At 06 December 2016 I see almost all Russian media start to blame BlazingFast in next:

    • that they are a Ukranian company (means - controlled by Ukranian government) and they because of order from Ukraine special forces start to make a DDoS attack against Russian financial states, banks, etc. This is absolute bullshit. All what russian propaganda wish to say: "ukranian revenge made to russia problems"
    • they start to blame and make fake news about almost everything related to BlazingFast. Just because it's a company from Ukraine. This is super important. They will never say that a company from for example in EU or US (which to be clear, if understand that almost 80% of all VPS/Dedi/Shared Hosting market located and controlled by these citizens), but these idiots start to lie and make a lot of problems to BlazingFast

    At the same time frame since around 03-06-09 December when almost all fake news start to write bullshit (which is absolute fake, because the owner of the company did make an interview with some official news company where he explains what happen, etc). Then these idiots start to lie that: "all ukranian company leaks users credentials and information about users to FSB, and different special forces", without proofs, just like that. Which is absolute bullshit too, which is denied by the owner of the company in an interview where he described in detail how and what was.

    What BlazingFast got after being blamed in all Russian media and fake news?

    • a lot of hate, a lot of problems from Russians
    • a lot of problems with special forces, and a lot of interest from different special forces, officials, etc because of fake news (because affected central bank of Russia (main bank) and stolen a lot of money).
    • almost all company does not want to be a target of such activities and problems, almost everyone just wishes to do their job well, without too much attention.
    • destroyed reputation
    • fakes and bots start to write different (in the same time frame on different forums with 1-2 post messages) fake reviews how bad the company and bla bla bla (massive propaganda, just for supporting fake news above).
    • And because all of this (just try to imagine yourself on their state), they hidden who are they and changed jurisdiction, and different other documents for avoiding such issues in the future.

    Btw, just my opinion, what happened:

    • Russians high-ranking officials, security officials, and other thieves stole money (like they do it always) by covering their crime via blaming Ukrainians because of having a war with Ukraine. Who did shit? Of course enemy! They at end of November start to prepare via official news on all TV channels, newspapers, etc about crime, at 02 December or earlier did crime by stealing money, and at 06 December they started a DDoS attacks just to hide crime and making a fake news for moving focus to something else what is actual (who do not know Ukraine and Russia has active hot war right now with using very heavy weapons, etc things).

    https://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2828583
    https://www.rbc.ru/finances/02/12/2016/584120739a794778590e2961
    http://therussiantimes.com/news/137154.html
    https://lenta.ru/news/2016/12/02/cyber/
    https://www.ntv.ru/novosti/1728002/
    https://xakep.ru/2016/12/12/russian-banks-ddos/
    https://lenta.ru/news/2016/12/02/massivehack/

    2 billion russian rubbles stolen.

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker
    edited December 2018

    I can't comment on the "Russia hacked them" allegation because I don't know about it and without solid knowledge I believe neither of them.

    But:

    @desperand said:
    I remember, that they never hide their documents, that they are a Ukranian company (at least at a time when I have used them)

    Are you a hater of anything ukrainian now, too? After all you did the same thing I did; you mentioned the fact that they are ukrainian - that's all I did. I didn't call them evil or anything, I merely stated the fact - just like you did.

    and they even showed where is hosted their office, etc official documents, etc. And for me was very interesting, what happen, why they start to hide almost everything.

    ... and their office address - according to their web site - is in Macau. Just as I said.

    Funnily you, the big fan of blazingfast.io do not tell us anything more (and probably don't know anything more) about their DDOS protection which after all was the topic here.

    This wasn't about whether they are a nice company. It was about their DDOS protection. Just read the title of this thread! And that was my point. As they do not provide any tangible information about their DDOS protection the question of trust arises; after all "trust us" is all they tell us. So I looked whether there's a reasonable basis to trust them. The answer I came up with was that I do not see a basis to trust them because they are a company in country A with a partner or front in (far away and not exactly an epicenter of connectivity) country B, (at least a significant part of) operations in country C and a letter box office in country D in Asia (known more for gambling than for internet operations).

    I even provided a comparison with Serverius, a company in Country A, an address and real office in country A, a data center in country A, and quite some documentation about their DDOS protection of similar caliber (~ 1 Tb/s).

    Evil, evil me!

    Thanked by 1kkrajk
  • desperanddesperand Member
    edited December 2018

    jsg said: I even provided a comparison with Serverius, a company in Country A, an address and real office in country A, a data center in country A, and quite some documentation about their DDOS protection of similar caliber (~ 1 Tb/s).

    I just saying that nobody except them and those guys partners doesn't know how is everything developed.
    I can believe that it's possible for a mid company to have an agreement to use someone resources for utilizing it as a place for attack absorption with capacity up to 4.2TB for example.

    I can even believe, that people can use border routers and very powerful hardware where they have access to, for developing different complicated "home-made" solutions against DDoS attacks.

    So, why the whole situation can't be applied for example to BlazingFast? Is 1TB/s is something "rare" in the Netherlands? Or EU?

    Just small example: https://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/83856/seflow-net-free-4-2tbps-ddos-mitigation-lifetime-on-all-service-from-3-99-m-bgp-avaiable

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    Please don’t bring seflow into it.

    Thanked by 1Aidan
  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @desperand said:
    I can believe that it's possible for a mid company to have an agreement to use someone resources for utilizing it as a place for attack absorption with capacity up to 4.2TB for example.

    I can even believe, that people can use border routers and very powerful hardware where they have access to, for developing different complicated "home-made" solutions against DDoS attacks.

    So, why the whole situation can't be applied for example to BlazingFast? Is 1TB/s is something "rare" in the Netherlands? Or EU?

    Well 4.2 Tb/s is more than half of what the worlds biggest internet exchange (DeCix, FRA) processes. And even 1 Tb/s isn't exactly what most data centers have.

    The problem starts with the fact that those "we can handle x Gb/s DDOS" numbers are in addition to the normal clean traffic; typically providers go around that by diverse tricks, usually boiling down to have someone else (specialized in that and with the bandwidth needed) actually dealing with the attack.

    Of course one can (to some degree) do it locally either with what you call "home-made" solutions or with bought solutions, typically some hardware. But again, the major limit usually is the bandwidth available which for most providers is in the 10 - 100 Gb/s range. That is also even more than their limit for DDOS protection because, again, they must still process all the normal traffic too. Think about it and you will see that bandwith being a significant cost factor most providers won't have large reserves; if their typical peak traffic is 18 Gb/s they might have 20 - 30 Gb/s bandwith in total so any DDOS going beyond the bandwidth not needed for normal traffic will cripple their operations. Plus DDOS attacks tend be much larger than the bandwidth of a typical provider. That's why it makes sense for them to have someone like voxility with large bandwidth and the equipment needed take care of the DDOS protection.

  • desperanddesperand Member
    edited December 2018

    jsg said: limit usually is the bandwidth available which for most providers is in the 10 - 100 Gb/s range.

    I accept your point and agree with some things, but don't agree with this quoted sentence.
    10-100GB/s is not something "rare" or "for big enterprise only".

    For example: https://blazingfast.io/web
    10Gbit/s connections.

    Or another good example: https://www.fastpipe.io/cloudserver

    2x10Gbpe

    Or Linode with 40Gbit/s

    These 10-100Gbit/s was rare somewhere in 2012 for example, 2014, but not in 2018.

    And all that I wish to say: I don't know do they have the real capacity or not, I just saying that it's possible not even with a lot of money involved. Just possible to do in EU.

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker
    edited December 2018

    @desperand

    Are you serious putting Linode next to blazingfast.io?

    It's easy to get misled by large marketing numbers. For one, actual bandwidth is usually considerably lower than marketing bandwidth. A typical example is a provider that has a fiber that can carry 100 Gb and a contract that allows to upgrade actual bandwidth to 100 Gb saying that he has 100 Gb bandwidth while he actually has maybe 40 Gb. Another issue is that bandwidth is just one factor; many providers have fibers/connections capable of e.g. 100 Gb/s but actually just fill e.g. 40 Gb/s - and the price goes by volume. Trust me, a provider cares very much about the actually used bandwidth/volume and he knows that his backend provider doesn't care whether that volume is DDOS or profit generating traffic.

    Also, do you really have an idea what you talk about? You seem to think that using some linux systems with some smart software will do the trick. No, wrong, at least at bandwiths beyond a few 10 Gb/s. If providers spend seriously big money on DDOS backend providers or on equipment they have a good reason to do so instead of putting some Xeon system into a rack. That's why you find a few really large DDOS-protection providers in large data centers and internet exchanges; it allows their customers to get rid of that problem relatively cheaply.

    Btw. don't make the mistake of calculating based on what providers offer in terms of bandwidth to their customers. If a given provider does sell e.g. 10 Gb/s connections to a rack or machine and has 100 customers that does not mean that he has a 1 Tb/s connection. I've seen enough "1 Gb/s dedis" in racks with a single 10 Gb/s rack switch port (and even ones with much less). And that is (usually) not fraud, because clients demand many things ... but then use far less; it's for example quite normal for customers explicitely asking for a 1 Gb/s dedi ... and then using less that 50 Mb/s.

  • desperanddesperand Member
    edited December 2018

    jsg said: Are you serious putting Linode next to blazingfast.io?


    Yes, I'm serious. I'm using hell a lot of VPSes over the last decade from so many providers, and every year at least one time per year or twice I'm just checking some providers how they going now for different hobby projects and compare how it was going before.

    Looks like you don't know, that for example, Linode "super reputable provider" (I think it's not) was for example 2 weeks OFFLINE for ~200k clients? Or you did not hear that? Technically there was an internet connection, but download/upload speed was 1-15kb/s.

    https://blog.linode.com/2016/01/29/christmas-ddos-retrospective/

    Please, try to get me correctly. I know what is good performance or bad performance on VPS. Linode is not a top provider for me, I have in my list, for example, better providers which will do their job in several times better for around the same price (not in terms like cloud provider (but some of the providers can do that too much better than Linode).

    Looks like you missed something if you distinguish Linode as something "special".
    They have very bad management and because of their blatantly stupid position - they lost whole low-end market up to 1-20$ (which is as you understand - a very big slice for the market of VPSes). As you remember, DO and than Vultr almost killed Linode, hell a lot of clients moved away from them (me too) to new cheaper, and much more powerful nodes.
    Price means - everything for the client (for example me). And Linode did nothing until the critical point when for example DO grow by 100k customers, not by year to year, but week by week (someone I hope, remember DO clients counter on the front page?)

    They (Linode) never drop prices below 20$ for around 10 years for sure in my practice. NEVER EVER. And always was over the average price in the market for the same features and hardware with the same level of support and quality. In many times much cheaper and effective will be rent a dedi instead of Linode crap. And what do we see now? 5$ VPS here, and there from Linode. Because market know better what the client need, and now they forced to use that, otherwise they will be out of the game.

    Sorry for the wall of text about Linode, I used this provider really a lot, I can tell you oh damn, so many bad things about Linode, which is for some reason people think like something "super-duper good", which is not, and never was. Ever. Also, check their financial reports since for example 2013.

  • @desperand said:
    Sorry for the wall of text about Linode...

    No problem.
    Good formatting.

  • dedicatserver_rodedicatserver_ro Member, Host Rep
    edited December 2018

    @desperand said:

    jsg said: limit usually is the bandwidth available which for most providers is in the 10 - 100 Gb/s range.

    I accept your point and agree with some things, but don't agree with this quoted sentence.
    10-100GB/s is not something "rare" or "for big enterprise only".

    For example: https://blazingfast.io/web
    10Gbit/s connections.

    Or another good example: https://www.fastpipe.io/cloudserver

    2x10Gbpe

    Or Linode with 40Gbit/s

    These 10-100Gbit/s was rare somewhere in 2012 for example, 2014, but not in 2018.

    And all that I wish to say: I don't know do they have the real capacity or not, I just saying that it's possible not even with a lot of money involved. Just possible to do in EU.

    I'm sorry, but you do not understand how a network worked in one DC .......
    All your example are wrong, they are most cloud VDS and the cloud Node connection is 10...40 Gbps the VM have max 1Gbps.( mostly under 100mbps )

    Now one example DC side :

    • My Core Border have 6 x 100G + 48 x 10G so i can tell you "My max Network Capacity is more than 1TB" ( and this is truth ) but i have only 110G Total internet connections , my bigger connection is on 40G and the smaller connection is on 10G even if i have 100G unused ports in my core.
      My DDOS scrubing center can handle 100G attacks but in the reality if i receive one atack on the 10G port with more than 10G , the attacked server and all the traffic on that port will have big problems or if i receive one atack on the 40G port with more than 40G because of the port will be down.

    In the real life over the last 3 years our biggest single attack on all three internet connections was of 28 Gbps and cumulative attacks 67 Gbps .

    So if i will write on my website :

    1. I have 1TB DDOS protection - it will be a lie
    2. I can handle 1TB attack because my network capacity is over 1TB - it will be a lie
    3. I can handle 100G attack - it will be true unless I explain under what circumstances
    4. I can handle up to 10G attack - it will be true

    one example Server side :

    • in our cloud each server have 2 x 40Gbps + 2 x 1Gbps connections ( one 40G for Data transfer between the Nodes , one 40G for internet and 1G backup for each 40G connection )
    • like i say the each VM in the cloud have only rezerved 100Mbps
    • our servers have standard 1/10 Gbps port connection but only 100Mbps trafic

    So if i will write on my website :

    1. The VM in cloud have 40Gbps - it will be a lie
    2. Servers have up to 10Gbps - it will be not a lie, when you order you will pay extra for everything that goes beyond 100Mbps
    3. Servers have 1Gbps network connection 10TB/month trafic - it will be true but for 10TB trafic it's enough 100Mbps connection ( 100Mbps full load = 29TB/month )

    Anything else written on a website is marketing !!!!

    Thanked by 1quicksilver03
  • chihcherngchihcherng Veteran
    edited December 2018

    "980Gbps DDoS protection" is just one of the solutions to "How to keep my customers from being affected by network attacks." It's not the only one.

    @desperand said:
    Why did this happen? Because was found an exploit in different software, IoTs etc.
    People start to scan the internet for hacking servers and using them in their botnets to do massive DDoS attacks. A lot of hosters were affected by this. Hell a lot of them from which servers were scans, and which hosts were a source of DDoS attack botnet, or like that.

    "980Gbps DDoS protection" is a reactive defense. What we should seek might be a proactive defense. The scale of DDoS is proportional to the size of botnets. If we can reduce the number of malware-infected computers beforehand, "980Gbps DDoS" might not happen in real life.

    "How?", you might ask.

    Detect and report.

    Detect: The "Failed password" logs for your SSH server is a good start. The way I misuse HAProxy to detect TCP port scans is another. Both of them give you the date, time and source IP when abnormal network behaviors reach your VPSes. You will need them when reporting.

    Report: Detection won't make botnets any smaller. Reporting them will. You have to let the victims know that something is wrong with their (possibly infected) computers, so they will investigate and try to fix the problem.

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @desperand

    That may all be true and I don't argue against your personal experience but Linode is way bigger than blazingfast.io (they have hundreds of thousands of customers) and in this context here that's relevant. Reason: more customers boils down to more bandwidth. Think about what I said about actually used bandwidth; nearly all customers asking for 1 Gb/s for their dedi or VPS do not use even 25% of that bandwidth and most use less than 10% or even 5%. So to justify about 1 Tb/s backend/upstream one needs hundreds of thousand of customers. And even a provider that big will think twice before building a "home-made" solution - and will almost always decide against it. About the only case where I can see it making sense is one (a) is a super-large provider, (b) has at least some global presence, and (c) has its own global network. OVH is an example, blazingfast.io is certainly not.

  • FHRFHR Member, Host Rep
    edited December 2018

    @eol said:

    That already happened with a certain provider...

    Thanked by 1eol
  • Good read.
    Thanks.

    Thanked by 1dedimark
  • Blazingfast_IOBlazingfast_IO Member, Host Rep

    Sorry for the late reply, I will try to answer some of the main topics here.

    • BlazingFast at the moment can take up to 980Gbps of DDoS attacks, we do most of the scrubbing of the attacks.
    • We do not use Voxility since around 2016 since it's really unstable.
    • Currently we have offices in China, Portugal and Ukraine.
    • Our services locations are currently Portugal and Netherlands but we have another 4 locations prepared for 2019.
    • @desperand Thank You for the kind words and statements about our past.

    Today we launched a new advanced protection profile for Teamspeak3.

    I will leave this as a side note we might not be as big as Linode but maybe our numbers are bigger then what you would expect. Our goals are also different, Blazingfast main objective is to spend money and time on DDoS Protection.

  • Every time I hear Blazingfast, it reminds me of 2x4 and similar providers. Just why?

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    People ask you many times who you have this capacity with. You seem to be dodging this question. It got me curious, why is that ?

    Thanked by 3First-Root jsg kkrajk
  • @Clouvider said:
    People ask you many times who you have this capacity with. You seem to be dodging this question. It got me curious, why is that ?

    why you lie. you not curious at all...

    Thanked by 1kkrajk
  • First-RootFirst-Root Member, Host Rep

    @smile said:

    @Clouvider said:
    People ask you many times who you have this capacity with. You seem to be dodging this question. It got me curious, why is that ?

    why you lie. you not curious at all...

    But I am

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @Clouvider said:
    People ask you many times who you have this capacity with. You seem to be dodging this question. It got me curious, why is that ?

    It's quite feasible in NL to be near a 1+Tb/s fiber. One typical situation would be to be in a DC where their IX sits.

    But I'm convinced that blazingfast.io is playing games/tricks. They are way too small both to have that kind of bandwidth or to do the hardware and software development for their own solution. So I guess they are piggy back riding and using some external service (but not Voxility).

    The fact that they are so tight lipped and do not provide any relevant information confirms my suspicion.

    Well noted this is not blazingfast.io bashing. They might be a good VPS and/or dedi hoster, they might provide good support and whatnot. But wrt to their DDOS-protection I stay completely unconvinced.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    I’m not saying it’s not possible, it just requires substantial commit hence why them dodging the question makes it slightly unbelievable.

  • Clouvider said: I’m not saying it’s not possible, it just requires substantial commit hence why them dodging the question makes it slightly unbelievable.

    If someone actually has like a tera of commit I'd expect them to scream it as a huge selling point

    Thanked by 1Aidan
  • Pics or didn't happen.

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @Clouvider said:
    I’m not saying it’s not possible, it just requires substantial commit hence why them dodging the question makes it slightly unbelievable.

    Absolutely.

  • jackbjackb Member, Host Rep
    edited December 2018

    @Clouvider said:
    I’m not saying it’s not possible, it just requires substantial commit hence why them dodging the question makes it slightly unbelievable.

    Or perhaps all upstreams they have accept flowspec rules? But then calculating max filtering capacity would be rather difficult if not impossible.

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    @jackb said:

    @Clouvider said:
    I’m not saying it’s not possible, it just requires substantial commit hence why them dodging the question makes it slightly unbelievable.

    Or perhaps all upstreams they have accept flowspec rules? But then calculating max filtering capacity would be rather difficult if not impossible.

    Or perhaps the volumetric scrubbing is done off their network entirely - meaning they’d don’t have the capacity themselves at all. I think that’s what people are trying to figure out and the provider is avoiding the answer.

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @Clouvider said:

    @jackb said:

    @Clouvider said:
    I’m not saying it’s not possible, it just requires substantial commit hence why them dodging the question makes it slightly unbelievable.

    Or perhaps all upstreams they have accept flowspec rules? But then calculating max filtering capacity would be rather difficult if not impossible.

    Or perhaps the volumetric scrubbing is done off their network entirely - meaning they’d don’t have the capacity themselves at all. I think that’s what people are trying to figure out and the provider is avoiding the answer.

    ... and such answering anyway.

    If as a provider I have about a 1 Tb/s bandwidth I'll tell it for diverse reasons, one of them being that it convinces potential customers.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    Prefixes with description matching company name seem to be announced from this ASN, https://bgp.he.net/AS49349#_asinfo with only 8k IPs on this ASN.

  • It's not so hard for them to advertise 980 Gbps scrubbing capacity as one of their Tier2 providers (NFO) has 1800 Gbps in NL (100+400+100+200+200+200+400+200) https://www.nforce.com/infrastructure. I know they have other providers that they use when they need to filter higher bandwidth attacks (in past they had Voxility). BlazingFast seems to handle L3-L4 volumetric attacks pretty well and in addition to that they have L7 filters for TeamSpeak / HTTP(s) attacks.

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