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While i admit there are some useful applications of javascript 95% of it is just useless bling bling garbage. I care for content and performance so javascript is on my do not want list. It being the main exploitation vector in browsers just seals the deal. Sorry, i value functionality over design nonsense so while you think i might need sedation i think you should read a book once in a while. Maybe even one without pictures.
Nice cheek there son.
Yes, people moaned about DHTML, moaned about Javascript.
If a website doesn't work without JS, then tough luck for you? How about that one.
Funnily enough there's only rudimentary support for your mindset. What exactly are you looking for? Kindly suggest a ubiquitous client side technology, alternatively, provide some rationale on why there's a million and one reasons for some client-side logic that you feel the need to belittle.
You've already admitted there are "useful" applications of javascript. There's useful applications of people, the web, the Internet too. I don't know of anything that's "universally good" but perhaps someone of your pretentious nature does.
Ouch... Seems aren't taking being flamed all that good. Might be a wise idea not to randomly flame people then as they might flame back. As for your points: Yawn. Million and one reasons? Yet you list exactly zero. Yawn. I am supposed to know something that's "universally good" or overuse of javascript is automatically justified. Yawn.
If the site doesn't work without JS and they want me to use it, then tough luck for them. How about that one?
I find that people that harp on about theoretical ideals do way too much talking and nothing practical.
Go look at the most frequented sites on the web and their extensive use of JS, then come back with your serious face on and say something.
I can understand hating the fancy page loads and animations and whatnot, but what about simple buttons like "thanks" or "upvote"? Would you prefer that they opened a new tab every time you clicked on them, and displayed a page saying "thanks for the vote, now close this window"? How is that not bloating the website more than it needs to? How is that easier on the network, instead of sending just a few bytes of data it loads a whole 50kb new page?
Javascript isn't always fancy; it's necessary to make websites easier for mobile networks, easier to use, and for some features, there is no html-only alternative, such as for upvote or thanks buttons. This is just one example on top of my head.
Or selecting part of a post and clicking on the quote button. Or clicking on "bold" button in a forum editor to insert the necessary bb-code.
HTML-only request/response websites are dying. Clinging to "no-javascript" mentality will eventually die completely.
There are bad usages of JS, but that doesn't mean JS is bad or it should be "optional".
Most functions of JS can be replicated using HTML-only versions of pages, and I understand you prefer to see that websites utilize html versions that work without JS. However JS is absolutely necessary for performance and usability perspective.
I'm currently working on coding a website, and the "upvote" button works without JS. You can click on upvote, it opens in a new tab, and displays "thank you for your vote" page. It's an absolutely useless waste of time, because 99.99% of people has javascript. Also, those JS people will send less than 1kb of a network request when they click on upvote. People like you will load a 50kb new page when they want to upvote, and then have to close that tab.
How about the little "bookmark" icon on top of this thread? I click on a star, it turns yellow, and I get notifications about this thread. Would you have preferred loading a new page for performance and usability?
I just edited this post, using the "inline edit" function, without leaving the page, by the way.
Saying "95% is useless" means 95% of people are misusing the tech. It doesn't mean the tech is not sound. The tech is awesome, necessary, and here to stay.
If it says "please enable JS and refresh to use our site" and displays a blank page, then yes, fuck'em. If it says "some of the features require JS" then I bet my ass that some features cannot be replicated with an html-only version.
Upvote buttons can be replicated as I mentioned above, but bb-code insertion buttons cannot. These two are simple examples, and there are probably a thousand ways that JS is necessary to use some functions.
Lol. Firstly, you have not the slightest idea about the amount of code i've written and secondly i am not going on about any kind of "theoretical ideal" but the sad fact that javascript is used in tons of scenarios where it isn't needed. Want an example? Go to gnome-look.org with javascript turned off and try to download anything. Not working that great, eh? It's not even about changing any content. It's a stupid standalone page but it had to be done in javascript. Can you justify that? And don't even get me started on all the useless design crap.
Ohhh. I see. Just because current trends say to stick javascript to fucking everything it's best to stick javascript to fucking everything. Can you even name a single example where javascript is crucial for the actual function of a website? Besides, guess what. The internet these days is made for morons. I don't give a shit if something appeals to the mindless masses that judges things on a basis of shiny/cool and non-shiny/non-cool.
Yet that's all you offer in a South-Park-Matt-Damonesque manner. "NO JS! JS = BAD UNECESSARIES SECURITIEZZ!"
I don't have to justify it. You're the one wanting to live in a Javascript free world. Why not use javascript. You're the 0.5% of the world that chooses not to use it. You're like an uber-lefty wondering why I'm not wearing a t-shirt endorsing lesbian monkey same sex relationships cos-i-must-be-a-homophobe.
Don't be a clown, I'm talking about the culmination of 20 years of evolution of web development. You get very large companies with several thousand highly intelligent and educated people that are making group decisions, not to mention the majority of the web that just uses javascript.
Still though, you're something special taking the alternate view.
You totally do not understand the utility value of a client side technology like Javascript, which Harzem touched on.
It's not necessary, but then again I'm sure you're not necessary either.
Looking in Alexa, I see Google=#1, Facebook #3, Wikipedia #5. I don't know what #2 or #4 are. I suspect one or both of them are Chinese. Google and Wikipedia work fine without JS. I don't use Facebook. So I'm set.
God help us.
Well, firstly i have already admitted that are cases where javascript makes sense. Those kinda buttons might be one of those cases but then coding around the issue without opening a new tab/window isn't impossible either. Like creative use of iframes and targets. I wouldn't even be surprised if some CSS trickery allowed for some kind of "Thanks for your vote" popup these days. In the end i'd question if said functionality is really vital. I know you are just using this as an example but i don't think i care for liking stuff all that much.
In the end how big is this page really after being gzipped? I'd argue i can easily take a couple of reloads compared to the metric fuck ton of javascript libraries some websites dump on me and i have a lot of painful mobile connection experience (this post is written using gprs speed...). Besides any kind of serious JS code will be a major hit on the CPU. Older hardware that is still otherwise fine for office use pretty much struggles even loading websites just because the creator liked to use javascript to display a huge table (cough lowendstock cough).
Not saying this is a bad thing but i don't need (and pretty much don't use) it.
Are dying? They are pretty much dead already. It's a trend set by what the majority of internet users expect and it would be foolish to think it can be stopped or even reverted. I'd even say this is just the beginning. Web browsers already run pretty much full fledged applications and that is where we are heading. The web as a form of formated text is what is dying by now.
Agreed about the bad usages but imo it should be optinal as far as possible.
As said above JS performance for any kind of serious script is downright horrible on older hardware. Damn it often gets to the point a even rather recent hardware chokes.
See above (gzip, iframe, don't care all that much).
Considering the amount of time i've used that function the response could as well be sent by email and i wouldn't care.
It's nice, i know but isn't bad otherwise either.
Scratch the awesome and we can have an agreement. The mindless expansion of browser technologies is not awesome. If javascript stayed a little less capable and confinied to examples like you listed it wouldn't be such a headache. But it's getting expanded, expanded, expanded. No wonder people get the idea that cramming what is basically an application into what should have been a website is fine. Options for fallbacks would be pretty much straight forward also but the future seems to be web assembler. Yeah, the headache is likely not only here to stay but is getting expotentionaly bigger.
Look at all the functionality that makes finger printing such a piece of cake (JS is by far the biggest offender in panopticlick). WebRTC that leaks everyones internal IPs without them even knowing they have something like this. Canvas which is flawed for reasons i've forgotten. WebGL which is privacy/security nightmare by design and probably not fixable. No, JS and associated technologies are certainly not awesome.
I don't get what you are trying to say.
Lol. So you can't. Still haven't seen a single counter example btw. Look at @Harzem's post. He has points. You have colorful analogies.
Yeah and they make decissions that will appeal to a majority because majority = money. So your point being exactly what?
Oh my! An alternate view versus a million of donkeys! What have i become...
Are you sure?
Ouch. I feel hurt now.
Sorry man. This discussion is over.
"Enable Javascript to see Google maps"
That leaves you with a glorified UGC version of Encyclopedia Brittanica. I had one of those on CD-ROM in the early 90s.
You'll not be liking webgl and the movement towards utilising the GPU.
Besides you already have the likes NoScript, if that's your disposition you can peer review Javascript before loading each (trusted?) webstie.
I'm fine with the status quo. You talk like someone who doesn't have very much involvement with making web pages, so... yeah, I'm not going to waste time with someone who'll inevitably say "I was just trolling" like you already have.
Anyways, this is OT, I was just agreeing with an initial comment which you've taken exception to. Offer something better instead of riding my leg about something you don't like doggie.
majority = money
alright then. I understand. nice summation there. thanks for the pro tip.
when you've spent more than 5 minutes doing client and server side development, and see a bigger scope of "client side processing" than "clicking a like button without a page load", there will appear a much larger surface of use, but by all means, lets not do that because your PC may eat more cycles or your crickety browser might pick up something nasty due to all the other poorly coded stuff you elected to use.
javascript is PERFECT for the likes of forum usage, where functionality gets cached without serving the same old HTML over the network over many, many page loads.
I hate to say it but vpsboard is dead because when its software upgrade made it too JS-heavy, everyone left.
Google Maps is a good use of JS. Google Search doesn't need it, or didn't last time I tried.
I don't have JS turned off but I adblock a lot of annoying trackers. It occurs to me that maybe new-reddit doesn't work as intended on my browser because I'm blocking something it tries to use. No matter, old-reddit works fine.
Exactly. At least i'd be seriously impressed if someone managed to even semiclone it without it. Actually this is what i've been waiting for @ricardo to throw at me but he was to busy posting cute stuff and making assumptions i guess.
New reddit is weird. IIRC i actually turned on javascript to see if it would get rid of the signup message overlaying half the posts but nope. I had to whip out Firebug and delete the element... Good to know the old version is still accessible.
I think the real future of the web is JSON APIs for everything. Not even HTML.
You'll be waiting a while. If you don't already appreciate how heavily JS is used in Google, browser plugins and many other places, it's just not worth my time to point it out.
You can go an the assumption that it's not needed, but simple fact is it's preferred, both client and server. Your arguments have basically been stuck with the examples spoon-fed to you, which is a boring conversation already.
I want to start using OpenStreetMap instead of Google Maps. Then I can use a local client and bypass the browser altogether.
willie do you just post piffy quips all the time or are you genuinely trying to say something?
If you want to bypass the browser and use open sources map data, what does that have to do with JS?
I think you already know the future, post funny sounding nonsense that'll pass as good enough, tis what the rest of the kids are doing
FWIW I'm working with a search engine to display open sourced data that doesn't use 3rd parties (they care about privacy), but they have no problems with JS.
I've also crawled several hunded million domains and see that the majority use JS.
Just turn your JS off and say no more.
OK, fuck it. Lets do that.
Do you even understand what i posted or why Google Earth is an example of completely justified and good javascript usage? Nope, i don't think so.
Can you fucking stop with the "you are a minority/status quo is different" so you are wrong shit? It's retarded.
While you are at it can you stop with the assumtions about what i did/do/etc? Do you seriously think that just because someone has experience in a certain field they will automatically share your opinion? Jeez...
You accuse me of trolling? Your posts have zero content when you substract the ad hominems, straw mens and the above mentioned bullshit while you are going on about how you don't need address specifics since it's a waste of your time and so much below you.
Can you please fuck fucking off? No, don't post some incoherent nonsense full of falacies. Just look at your "agreeing comment" and realize how it is inflamatory. Thank you very much.
You didn't. I suggested Google maps and you've only just mentioned Google Earth
Anyone who has a memory retention of more than a minute has to laugh at what you've just posted. Just shut up already and change the subject.
Boring my tits off m8. I'll tell you what, you win, your idea of a non-JS world sounds real cool. The future. Grounded in reality and backed up by solid logic and human need. Look forward to it.
You didn't suggest shit. @willie did.
Gosh you have to cling onto a typo. Pathetic.
Yeah it is. Not my fault though.
You can't even CTRL+F to see the first mention. Do one.
Yeah you mentioned it up there somewhere coupled with some strong polemic. Was never directed at me though. And now that you have brought up also this pointless shit is it possible for you to fuck off?
OK ego boy let me put it another way, I disagree with you and that is all. Sorry you can't handle it. Bye bye now.
Nothing more while I'm here? OK then. night night
No, nothing of relevance. One has to know when a good flame war is over. C ya :P
Wow, so much passion for and against JS. :-)
Guys, you're all wrong, we have to replace JS with Ada, which is a super-safe language, with super-strong typing, blah-blah, etc. (Trying to remember who said such things ... ;-) )
Anyway, it's a nice spring day -- try to enjoy it a little. :-)
Damn i miss the guy.
Yeah about to go for a walk. No, really i have to do groceries but pretending it to be a walk makes it feel much better