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Generator or Giant Battery Bank? - Page 3
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Generator or Giant Battery Bank?

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Comments

  • @randvegeta said:

    Well why would you spend money on having both? If you have a generator, you only need a few minutes of UPS time, just so you can get the generator back up.

    It depends on how long you intend to run without external power. Generators are mechanical things that need to be refueled and serviced, and like all mechanical things, they can break.

    Plus things go wrong. "We were testing the generators, things went wrong, and we took down the datacenter" is more common then you would think. A battery bank which can power the datacenter while the generators are offline for fueling, servicing, or error would be ideal.

    If you have crazy long UPS time, why do you need a generator?

    Generators are a longer term solution. Batteries are slow to recharge, and they have a finite number of cycles. They also aren't something that is readily field serviceable.

    Thanked by 2randvegeta Aidan
  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @doghouch said:
    @randvegeta Watch out—depending on where you store the diesel, it can go stale. I’ve seen my dad’s old car not start because the gas had been exposed to air for around a year.

    What about sealed containers where it is not exposed to oxygen?

  • AidanAidan Member

    @randvegeta said:

    @doghouch said:
    @randvegeta Watch out—depending on where you store the diesel, it can go stale. I’ve seen my dad’s old car not start because the gas had been exposed to air for around a year.

    What about sealed containers where it is not exposed to oxygen?

    Low sulfur diesel, I'd say 6 months with a bit of a stabiliser added.

    Dirty diesel, up to about 12 months if you can keep it relatively airtight & in clean containers.

  • not sure if this was mentioned but what about:
    https://www.tesla.com/powerwall
    ???

  • @doughnet said:
    not sure if this was mentioned but what about:
    https://www.tesla.com/powerwall
    ???

    Yeah, using powerwalls to keep a DC powered up is rather stupid. Think about it, genius. Diesel is cheaper and doesn’t have a limit to the amount of cycles it can go through.

  • J1021J1021 Member

    @randvegeta said:
    Though the battery bank may be cost effective if used not specifically as a UPS but as a way to obtain cheaper power. Charge up when power is plentiful and cheap and discharge during peak hours, which actually saves on cost. That could potentially be very cost effective, but it serves a different function than backup power.

    And if the mains incoming supply fails during peak hours when your batteries are depleting - you’re screwed?

    It’s a fantasy.

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • randvegeta said:
    That implies lead acid starter batteries.

    Yes, that was the joke.

    Li-ion is quite a bit different. Even if second hand, they are far superior to brand new lead acid ones.

    Sure, and Tesla have industrial sized units which are suitable for this use. I'm not sure if anybody is using them for DC backup though, and there is probably a reason for that. In any case, using re-purposed auto units will require some engineering and the power wall is just a toy for home users. There is a reason why lead acid is used in large installations and it has to do with a long history and well honed maintenance practices as well as longevity. This however still does not make it a good fit for data center use.

    randvegeta said: New York has had many many many outages. Just look at that list and see how often things go down.

    And other than multi-million dollar DCs, if I'm not mistaken, just about everyone was affected in some form or another.

    You are quite right. New York does seem to get a lot of major outages. I think though that many lower level operators have learnt their lesson and made some arrangement now. It is easy to loose customers when you've been down for two days, and they'll never come back.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    kcaj said: And if the mains incoming supply fails during peak hours when your batteries are depleting - you’re screwed?

    It’s a fantasy.

    Which part of what I said is a fantasy exactly? Why would someone who used such a system be screwed exactly? Did you read what I actually wrote?

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    Ole_Juul said: You are quite right. New York does seem to get a lot of major outages. I think though that many lower level operators have learnt their lesson and made some arrangement now. It is easy to loose customers when you've been down for two days, and they'll never come back.

    You'd think the NY DC's would be better prepared for long outages given the history. It's really no surprise that the best DC's over there are well equipped.

    Still... I would be far more understanding of downtime of a DC if the problem was some severe conditions. Particularly if there were billions of dollars of damage to the economy, as has been the case many times in the US.

    As I recall, during Hurricane Irma, half of Miami was basically flooded. I was surprised to see Choopa's (Vultr's) DC in that area still running. I'm sure many a DC was operating without grid power for some time. Many roads were completely under water. What happens to fuel deliveries in such conditions?

    I guess even goof fuel supply contracts also constitute a fantasy.

  • AidanAidan Member

    randvegeta said: during Hurricane Irma, half of Miami was basically flooded. I was surprised to see Choopa's (Vultr's) DC in that area still running

    Probably just used their bunker supply, though isn't Equinix the DC that they're using in Miami?

    randvegeta said: Many roads were completely under water. What happens to fuel deliveries in such conditions?

    They don't take place until it's safe to deliver.

  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran

    Sounds like using a gen is not so cheap, when you need to refresh the fuel every 12 months and keep enough for 2 weeks in case of natural disaster.

  • J1021J1021 Member
    edited March 2018

    @Neoon said:
    Sounds like using a gen is not so cheap, when you need to refresh the fuel every 12 months and keep enough for 2 weeks in case of natural disaster.

    You can polish diesel fuel.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_polishing

  • sureiamsureiam Member
    edited March 2018

    Battery with a generator would be my bet. And no $2500 per rack isn't too much.

  • @kcaj said:
    You can polish diesel fuel.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_polishing

    Many large DCs have either Fuel Maintenance / Polishing systems (coalescent filtering systems to remove water from the fuel) or contracts with companies that test and maintain the fuel in storage. It is definitely a worry and extended cost to Diesel Fuel systems in general though.

  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran

    @kcaj said:

    @Neoon said:
    Sounds like using a gen is not so cheap, when you need to refresh the fuel every 12 months and keep enough for 2 weeks in case of natural disaster.

    You can polish diesel fuel.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_polishing

    Amazing technology.

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