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EU or US locations?
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EU or US locations?

akzakz Member

other than geographical locations what are the main reasons why you would choose a vps in the EU vs the US?

Comments

  • xsetxset Member

    There is no NxSxA

    Thanked by 1akz
  • skaska Member

    @akz said:
    other than geographical locations what are the main reasons why you would choose a vps in the EU vs the US?

    • Payment
    • Trustworthness of seller
    • Legal framework
    Thanked by 1akz
  • akzakz Member

    @ska said:

    in terms of legal framework what is different between us/uk/eu? (other than nxsxa)

  • @xset said:

    There is no NxSxA

    GCHQ

  • Price and Support.

  • skaska Member

    @akz said:
    in terms of legal framework what is different between us/uk/eu? (other than nxsxa)

    Customer rights are far more developed -in terms of statutory law- within the EU (sidenote: UK is part of the EU since 1973) and are way easier to execute against the seller. Within the US those are more up to the discression of the seller. It is also easier to solve legal issues if you happen to be within the EU and buy from a EU seller. Additionally, data protection of client information is a basic right within the EU.

    Apart from that, bandwidth is slightly cheaper within the EU.

    However, if you happen to be within Asia or in the US you should go for a US seller. The first because of the peering, the latter because you happen to be within the same country. That makes payment and legal issues easier.

    Thanked by 1akz
  • @awson said:
    GCHQ

    They are very limited on EU citizens as well, unlike the NSA.

  • akzakz Member

    @ska said:

    thanks ska, very informative and good to know. That's why the poster above is claiming price and support over the US. I always thought it was because the EU was more lax on torrents and stronger in privacy.

  • nagugnagug Member
    edited August 2013

    @ska said:

    India is also in Asia :P

    I feel my latency is better for EU than for US. Tried from both Tata Communications and Airtel. My EU vps is always 150-170ms, whereas my US VPS are 250 to 280ms.. May be I need to find a better place in US where latency is lower.

  • skaska Member
    edited August 2013

    @nagug said:
    I feel my latency is better for EU than for US. Tried from both Tata Communications and Airtel. My EU vps is always 150-170ms, whereas my US VPS are 250 to 280ms.. May be I need to find a better place in US where latency is lower.

    In the end its always depending on the actual peering of your provider and the one of the VPS seller. However, generally speaking, East-/South-Asia is better off with a US-based VPS. India and Pakistan are exempted from this as they are connected via a Cable (I-ME-WE) through North-Africa with Italy and France since 2010. Tata (IN) and Airtel (IN) are besides Orange (FR) one of the corporations that have built that cable. That's why your ping should be quite fine by using EU VPSes. You should actually have the best ping to any VPS based in France where its VPS seller peers with Orange.

  • @ska said:

    Agreed :)

  • BrianHarrisonBrianHarrison Member, Patron Provider
    edited August 2013

    @William said:
    GCHQ are very limited on EU citizens as well, unlike the NSA.

    I'm sure they are... :rolleyes:

    You can't avoid NSA surveillance by going overseas (or any major government spy agency for that matter). It's been revealed that the NSA has "listening posts" on core routers all over the globe. Even then, as it stands now, the majority of Internet traffic routes through the USA.

  • @BrianHarrison said:
    the majority of Internet traffic routes through the USA.

    That is fast changing, most cables are built outside US, from my tests within US latency is terrible and the number of hops big, I have some 40 ms ping to UK, 35 to italy, in US between New York and LA the distance is twice as big as from Bucharest to London, yet ping is 150% higher instead of 100% only. If you need good connectivity in US go for Chicago, if you need good connectivity in east asia go for LA, other good places in US are Austin, Atlanta and Florida (Orlando/Miami dependng on your target), but IMO chicago beats every other location hands down. Good Europe connectivity, good US links, even east asia is not that far, if you are building a CDN or you are limited to 2 locations to cover the world, one has to be Chicago, the other within EU, Frankfurt preferably unless you need good connectivity to India/PK and you choose Italy or even France.

  • c0yc0y Member
    edited August 2013

    Most infrastructure in the US sucks, it's usually cheap because it's not worth much. But NL bandwidth for example is rapidly dropping in price due to government support for peering and high quality infrastructure finally paying off.

  • it's also a buble @Frost ... Dotcom 2.0, in special for transit carriers like Atrato...

  • spekkspekk Member
    edited August 2013

    if you are outside EU and not in the USA it is normal to prefer a VPS from the EU, because you get it VAT free, also if you are in the US, for some people it's better to get a VPS in Europe because of legislation, and well to get away from all the US regulations I guess, also for example if you get in trouble with some issue, it's much easier to get sued by US companies if you are hosting on US soil, and much harder for them to push for an international lawsuit, more expenses

    finally I noticed that the US people are more flexible when it comes to privacy and revealing your personal data, as they have the public records, a thing that does not exist in the EU

  • finally I noticed that the US people are more flexible when it comes to privacy and revealing your personal data, as they have the public records, a thing that does not exist in the EU

    But with companies is right opposite. EU hosting companies are usually "real" companies which include on their page imprint, registration number, vat number, office address, managing director name.... while many US hosts, especially those in budget segment, give us only anonymous "contact us" WHMCS form + email address.

    Thanked by 2ska tux
  • c0yc0y Member

    @William said:
    it's also a buble Frost ... Dotcom 2.0, in special for transit carriers like Atrato...

    Well, the consumer benefited from the original Dotcom bubble leaving quite a lot of fiber, bad thing: 99% proper .coms being parked for years and years :-P

    I sure do think it's a bubble, didn't come up with that yet, but sounds about right but I don't really see what can go wrong as the government is in huge debt already and it being spend on infrastructure that might go bankrupt later and become up for grasps for startup ISPs :>

  • BrianHarrisonBrianHarrison Member, Patron Provider
    edited August 2013

    @Spirit said:
    But with companies is right opposite. EU hosting companies are usually "real" companies which include on their page imprint, registration number, vat number, office address, managing director name.... while many US hosts, especially those in budget segment, give us only anonymous "contact us" WHMCS form + email address.

    How would you know that a "fake" host is located in the United States if they don't provide valid contact information and business registration information? Having their servers located in the USA is hardly proof that the business is based in the United States.

    From what I've seen, the problem of "fake" hosts more often than not originates from outside the USA. I often see small-scale operations owned by individuals in India, Brazil, et cetera sign up for cPanel reseller accounts or super low-budget dedicated servers in US datacenters and then claim on their website that they're an American business.

  • BrianHarrisonBrianHarrison Member, Patron Provider
    edited August 2013

    @Frost said:
    I sure do think it's a bubble, didn't come up with that yet, but sounds about right but I don't really see what can go wrong as the government is in huge debt already and it being spend on infrastructure that might go bankrupt later and become up for grasps for startup ISPs :>

    Fiber installation didn't end after the dot-com bubble... deployments/upgrades have continued and more recently they've been surging once again.

    Check out these FTTH rankings by country: http://www.ftthcouncil.org/d/do/4

    For a country as large (land area) as the USA, it's ranking quite well.

  • SpiritSpirit Member
    edited August 2013

    @BrianHarrison said:
    How would you know that a "fake" host is located in the United States if they don't provide valid contact information and business registration information?

    I am not talking about "fake" host and server location but business practice and legislation difference. You're good example of this what I am talking about. What legal information about your company do you provide when I enter into contract with you and provide you with my personal data? I will show you the difference.

    When I check your VPSHostingDeal.com page I can't find any legal company data apart from "is a division of Reprise Hosting" so I need to dig further to finally find at "reprisehosting.com" some P.O. box and this is it.
    Are you fake company? Who represent the other side of a contract?
    As difference I will give you few random examples of EU LEB hosting companies I use:
    http://www.edis.at/en/about/imprint/
    http://www.syscentral.de/en/imprint/
    http://www.allsimple.net/aboutus
    http://www.dediserv.eu/company-info/
    http://www.yisp.nl/about/contact
    Or even sole traders:
    http://www.finaltek.com/cz/htc/kontakt/5
    http://getkvm.com/ (bottom, left)
    http://www.hostineuro.com/aboutus.php

    Did you get the picture? In EU hosting industry client usually know with whom go into contract (even if that's a sole trader) in US sometimes yes but even more often don't - that's the difference.

    Thanked by 1ska
  • BrianHarrisonBrianHarrison Member, Patron Provider
    edited August 2013

    @Spirit said:
    I am not talking about "fake" host and server location but business practice and legislation difference.

    Spirit, you're missing what I'm getting at...

    My point is that you're making a sweeping generalization about American hosting companies without providing empirical or statistical evidence in support. Your original comment "EU hosting companies are usually 'real' companies" implies that American companies are not--which is not accurate in my opinion.

  • skaska Member

    @BrianHarrison said:
    My point is that you're making a sweeping generalization about American hosting companies without providing empirical or statistical evidence in support.

    How do you want to get empirical data, when US companies tend to not supply their potential contracting partners with any legal information about their company at all? Following the academic scientifical approach of emipircal data acquisition we then must assume that if no data can be found, it doesn't exist.

  • DomainBopDomainBop Member
    edited August 2013

    In EU hosting industry client usually know with whom go into contract (even if that's a sole trader) in US sometimes yes but even more often don't - that's the difference.

    True. The name (e.g. MyBedroomHostBiz, MyBedroomHostBiz.com) on the TOS (a contract) with many US based sole proprietor hosting companies often isn't even a legal entity (registered business) so you have no idea who the legal entity is that you're actually entering into a contract with.

    GetKVM is an example of a UK based sole trader whose TOS actually tells you exactly who you're entering into a contract with:

    "This is a legally binding contract between Ashley Hawkridge and the customer. Throughout this document Ashley Hawkridge (The sole proprietor) will be referred to as “GetKVM”...."

    BrianHarrison said:

    I often see small-scale operations owned by individuals in India, Brazil, et cetera sign up for cPanel reseller accounts or super low-budget dedicated servers in US datacenters and then claim on their website that they're an American business.

    I see just as many people who are from the US make false and misleading claims about their business status. Claiming that they're a registered business when they're not, failing to disclose the real legal entity that customers are entering into a contract with on their TOS, claiming they own a datacenter, etc. (and then there is the plethora of 15 year old CEO/COO/CTO summer hosts with unregistered businesses).

  • BrianHarrisonBrianHarrison Member, Patron Provider
    edited August 2013

    @ska said:
    How do you want to get empirical data, when US companies tend to not supply their potential contracting partners with any legal information about their company at all? Following the academic scientifical approach of emipircal data acquisition we then must assume that if no data can be found, it doesn't exist.

    EU tax structure and regulation is much different than it is in the USA. The way VAT etc is setup in the EU makes it expedient to publicly post a VAT ID (or at least include it on the invoice). An EU-registered company is usually required to place their VAT ID on their invoices if they sell to a company that is also in the EU. Also, if the buyer is not in their own country, but in the EU then I believe you are also required to add the VAT ID of the buyer to the invoice.

    None of this applies in the USA and as a result you don't see as many US-based companies posting their EIN on their website.

  • skaska Member
    edited August 2013

    @BrianHarrison said:
    None of this applies in the USA and as a result you don't see as many US-based companies posting their EIN on their website.

    I wasn't talking just about the Tax-ID. I was taking into account any legal information of relevance. That includes: the postal address of the seller, his name, the business register ID/number. In general, any information that allows to execute a court order against the contracting party.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Member
    edited August 2013

    I think that what @BrianHarrison wants to say is that EU has such regulations that make impossible for non-registered entities to do business there, while US allows that to some extent, therefore the business culture in the 2 areas is different.
    This is exactly what makes the difference. The entry level in the US is lower than in EU, since registering a company and running it costs a couple of hundred Eur a month or so, therefore most indian, south american, etc people can pose as US businesses much easier than as EU ones.

    I do not say that the likes of servercrate are better than fake US businesses (run by ppl posing as us businesses), just that the business culture is such that acts like those are much easier in US than EU.

    Leaving that aside, also the fact that I am from EU and i work for a EU provider, I do believe the average way of doing business is more serious in the EU than in US. You can pull a scam much easier in US and come back and pull another than in EU. My own honest opinion.

  • skaska Member

    I guess we're not talking about the same point. It is correct that the EU and the Member States have a far more detailed regulation concerning the disclosure of basic elements of identification.

    However, what my point is (and I guess it's also the point of @spirit), is the factual availability of information. Be it based on some legal regulation or on the discression of the seller. In the end, all that counts to me as a buyer is: do I have a possibility to get to know my contracting parter on the same level as he will know me. The seller always has to provide his personal and payment information. The disclosure of those basic information (name, postal address, register ID) of the seller is just a simple step in regards to the general principle of equality of arms.

    In the end it's always up to the seller if he does his due dilligence right. However, you can't if you don't have the necessary information.

  • @Spirit said:
    As difference I will give you few random examples of EU LEB hosting companies I use:

    Though this also has a legal background, Europe has simply more complicated laws on impress and similar stuff than the US and most others.

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