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Budgetnode Question
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Budgetnode Question

I just wanted to see if this type of thing is normal. I ordered a vps yesterday morning from Budgetnode and it hadn't been fulfilled last night so I opened a ticket and they informed me their atlanta server was under a ddos attack all day. I asked if their Ashburn facility was available and they said it was full so I decided to cancel,request a refund and try elsewhere. So I get a lovely response from Ishaq after they cancelled without refund, "
We'll go ahead and add your details to a fraud database and escalate the claim to PayPal.

Ticket closed.

Ishaq A.
Access Internet Ltd t/a BudgetNode
https://budgetnode.com | [email protected] | +44 2035 823 151"

Is this a normal response? I have screenshots if needed, just wanted to see if i'm crazy or not...

Comments

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider
  • Paypal dispute ≠ refund request.

    Thanked by 1gestiondbi
  • xaitmixaitmi Member
    edited February 2017

    I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere between client and provider.

    Because client should be entitled to a refund if the location he originally wanted was not available + alternate location also not available.

  • How did you request the refund? Through PayPal or did you contact BudgetNode and ask them for a refund?

  • quadhostquadhost Member
    edited February 2017

    @Falco33 said:
    How did you request the refund? Through PayPal or did you contact BudgetNode and ask them for a refund?

    +1, just curious - how long have you waited for the refund?

  • TaydTayd Member
    edited February 2017

    @Falco33 said:
    How did you request the refund? Through PayPal or did you contact BudgetNode and ask them for a refund?

    I put it in the support ticket but received the cancel notice. Ended up disputing it with paypal where budgetnode claimed it was beyond the refund period of 24 hours (my refund request was same day and before i received the vps login info which was past my request). They claimed my dispute was an act of fraud...not sure which dictionary they use for that definition.
    Seeing that it's only $5.00 I closed the dispute, I really didn't see it would do any good since digital goods never get refunded with paypal.

  • quadhostquadhost Member
    edited February 2017

    As I am sure others will want to know/see to verify - got a copy of the tickets or mails?

  • As always you should have asked the provider serveral times beforehand and not open a PayPal dispute for some days if the provider is communicating with you and giving you refund in a reasonable time (few days).
    Paypal dispute ≠ Refund request.

  • I've already got a server elsewhere, just wanted to know if this is normal with the smaller newly popped up hosting groups or if i'm crazy. People Don't typically claim fraud without valid reason.

  • @quadhost said:
    As I am sure others will want to know/see to verify - got a copy of the tickets or mails?

    I've saved them down if needed, not looking to make a big stink since it's a smaller two man group...just was trying to see if what he claimed was "normal".

  • Sequence of events is unclear here. Best to post a timeline of all events (orders, invoices, payments, ticket updates, Paypal disputes etc). Would also like to hear from Ishaq.

  • quadhostquadhost Member
    edited February 2017

    Tayd said: not looking to make a big stink

    Makes a nice change around these parts.

    just was trying to see if what he claimed was "normal".

    In short, each company will have its own handling procedure(s) and what they do or don't "accept".

    E.g we don't always issue refunds granted in our panel the same day and if our accounts team see disputes/chargebacks come in for any payments on rendered services then it is handled as per our policies.

  • so Budgetnode opened a dispute before you on paypal? how can they open a dispute on received money? is that even possible?

  • @Tayd

    Oh my god. I thought the message that I have received is just me alone but it seem like we are having the same issue with NO REFUND after purchase within 24 hours from this company own by Ishaq and Jordan. It look very bad after reading your case. The only different is you bought the VPS from budgetnode.com and I bought the Reseller Hosting Package from pageclick.net. These 2 sites are own and operate by them.

    The grey area will be under their Terms which can be found here.
    https://pageclick.net/terms

    I have to say that I have meet their Terms and condition under

    19.3 PageClick will offer a full refund within 24 hours of first order. Within 7 days of first order, a partial refund will be offered, covering payment vendor fees.

    But they don't even care to provide any refund within 24 hours for my first order with them. So, I give up and just "donate" the fund to them and the service is still "idle" which I don't use it since it doesn't meet my business requirements at all.

    19. Payments & Billing

    19.1 All invoices generated are payable and non-payment may result in service termination.
    
    19.2 Refunds will only be provided if the service you received is not as described. This will be decided at the discretion of management.
    
    19.3 PageClick will offer a full refund within 24 hours of first order. Within 7 days of first order, a partial refund will be offered, covering payment vendor fees.
    
    19.4 If your service is suspended for breaking these terms in the 7-day period we reserve the right to refuse you a refund.
    

    WARNING!!!

    Before you sign up for their Reseller Hosting, you should read their FAQ section https://pageclick.net/faq. For other hosting provider, you should be able to get or buy the DEDICATED IP for your business used. Unfortunately, this company don't offer it. After googling it, I found the reason but I will not share it here as it will affect their business.

    For those who want the Reseller Hosting with Dedicated IP, I will suggest that you look for https://buyshared.net/cpanel-reseller-hosting

    This is the response from Ishaq:

    I have to agree with Jordan, we do not advertise anywhere that we provide a dedicated IP address and thus you are not eligible to receive a refund. If you dispute the payment with PayPal, we will escalate it as a claim and get it closed as the service has been delivered as described. Disputing a payment for a service delivered as described is fraudulent and we would have to report your details to warn other providers, additionally we do not appreciate threats of your intention to dispute after we have explained to you that you have no grounds for a refund.

    It is irrelevant if you get dedicated IPs with other providers, we do not advertise anywhere that we provide it, it is even clearly stated on our website that we do not provide dedicated IPs. If you had any questions prior to purchase you could have submitted a pre-sales ticket and we would have cleared it up for you.

    I'm sorry we weren't able to facilitate you.

  • I really don't understand why people still give money to these WHMCS/SolusVM mashups operated from bedrooms versus a reputable and established host such as Linode/DigitalOcean.

    Thanked by 1quick
  • JordanJordan Member
    edited February 2017

    @b6688 19.2 clearly states "Refunds will only be provided if the service you received is not as described. This will be decided at the discretion of management."

    Not sure what exactly is difficult to understand about that. You still seem happy to just gloss over it.

    Overall, that's actually irrelevant here because nowhere did we refuse the customer a refund - he opened the dispute before we even had the chance right after the pending service had been provisioned. His description of the issue is deceitful. We do not tolerate disputes, especially when we had no chance at all to put things right with him in the first place.

    To summarise:

    • User requested refund

    • Service was provisioned and ticket updated to reflect this

    • Dispute instantly open. No refund was denied anywhere.

  • 19.3 PageClick will offer a full refund within 24 hours of first order.

    That doesn't sound like an acceptable policy unless the service is delivered immediately on order. Otherwise PageClick could sit on the order for 24h and then deliver something unusable with no refund available. OP is describing something approaching that: he ordered a VPS and got one that was unusable due to DDOS attack, or maybe the order wasn't fulfilled because of the ddos.

    Would still like to see the order, invoice, and ticket history with timestamps. If the refund request was under 24h from the order then that sounds like a refund is straightforwardly due under the policy. Otherwise the details become relevant.

    Thanked by 2Falzo Yura
  • @kcaj said:
    I really don't understand why people still give money to these WHMCS/SolusVM mashups operated from bedrooms versus a reputable and established host such as Linode/DigitalOcean.

    Because they could be cheaper, and at times even better that DO / Vultr / Linode. Not to mention that DO, Vultr or Linode don't always provide everything that a prospective buyer could require. (DDoS protection, for example, where an OVH reseller such as EVM could offer better mitigation at a better price point than any of these established players)

    Just saying..

    Thanked by 1MikeA
  • williewillie Member
    edited February 2017

    DO/Vultr/Linode used to be far more expensive than LET stuff (e.g. they had AWS-like bandwidth charges), though their basic SSD's are now closer to what we're used to and include bw. Stuff like storage with them is still through the roof by comparison to LET.

    I had signup hassles with both DO and Vultr so gave up on them. Didn't try Linode since their lowest plan was too expensive to even be allowed on LET. Linode also had a bad reputation of nulling your server for 24h at the slightest ddos.

    I've been very happy with lots of the LET regulars. Currently have plans with Ramnode, Buyshared, ZXHost, i83, Scaleway, VortexNode, and several LES plans. Everything works great or at least meets expectations. Several others I've had in the past have also been fine. So I haven't felt the need to deal with Vultr/DO/Linode. The most interesting of those is mnx.io which I might try sometime.

  • @Jordan

    I have accepted Ishaq response and the ticket was closed. I didn't open any Paypal dispute claim so no worry. I am just curious how many of your customers received the same message as me and OP. Nothing much.

    By the way, is that possible to transferred the ownership of the account to someone else?

  • @willie said:

    19.3 PageClick will offer a full refund within 24 hours of first order.

    That doesn't sound like an acceptable policy unless the service is delivered immediately on order. Otherwise PageClick could sit on the order for 24h and then deliver something unusable with no refund available. OP is describing something approaching that: he ordered a VPS and got one that was unusable due to DDOS attack, or maybe the order wasn't fulfilled because of the ddos.

    Would still like to see the order, invoice, and ticket history with timestamps. If the refund request was under 24h from the order then that sounds like a refund is straightforwardly due under the policy. Otherwise the details become relevant.

    All of this looks very strange and completely unexpected type of reasoning and behavior from person who really does know the realities of hosting, managing community and administrating providers forum. If the original premise of OP stands true, I feel a little dizzy and sad inside :(

    We'll go ahead and add your details to a fraud database

    Icing on the cake. I would really like to see some transparency here to decide if maybe LES type of providers are not suitable for me in future. Having personal information added to some "fraud list" distributed to great many 3rd parties, without committing or being found guilty of any fraud per se, is something people (and me included) should be aware of. Requesting a refund under 24 hours of service ordered (and provided or not due to ddos) is not a fraud under any definition I'm aware of.

  • JordanJordan Member
    edited February 2017

    @Yura said:

    @willie said:

    19.3 PageClick will offer a full refund within 24 hours of first order.

    That doesn't sound like an acceptable policy unless the service is delivered immediately on order. Otherwise PageClick could sit on the order for 24h and then deliver something unusable with no refund available. OP is describing something approaching that: he ordered a VPS and got one that was unusable due to DDOS attack, or maybe the order wasn't fulfilled because of the ddos.

    Would still like to see the order, invoice, and ticket history with timestamps. If the refund request was under 24h from the order then that sounds like a refund is straightforwardly due under the policy. Otherwise the details become relevant.

    All of this looks very strange and completely unexpected type of reasoning and behavior from person who really does know the realities of hosting, managing community and administrating providers forum. If the original premise of OP stands true, I feel a little dizzy and sad inside :(

    We'll go ahead and add your details to a fraud database

    Icing on the cake. I would really like to see some transparency here to decide if maybe LES type of providers are not suitable for me in future. Having personal information added to some "fraud list" distributed to great many 3rd parties, without committing or being found guilty of any fraud per se, is something people (and me included) should be aware of. Requesting a refund under 24 hours of service ordered (and provided or not due to ddos) is not a fraud under any definition I'm aware of.

    Our refund policy is completely fair. The premise of the OP is misleading as I discussed. There was no denied refund.

    The fraud database will be used by a lot of hosts. We can see who contributes and there are big names too. Disputes and chargebacks are a valid reason encouraged by the system. No one can access your details on the system so there is no need to worry about 3rd parties. It only returns reports by checking customer details against the ones on record which isn't displayed anywhere.

  • jvnadrjvnadr Member
    edited February 2017

    b6688 said: Oh my god. I thought the message that I have received is just me alone but it seem like we are having the same issue with NO REFUND after purchase within 24 hours from this company own by Ishaq and Jordan. It look very bad after reading your case.

    So, you bought a shared service asking for a dedicated ip, and when you realised that they don't provide ips nor do they advertise so anywhere, you asked for a refund. They denied the refund and your next step is to come here to bash them claiming that you asked refund within 24 hours, without posting even some evidence.
    Do you realize that they do not provide hosting as a hobby? Do you realize that their time is valuable? How can you demand having their support give time and effort for you to correct YOUR mistake ordering? Why didn't you open a pre-sales ticket to ask them if they fit your needs?
    And don't pretending to be the good guy because you did not open a paypal dispute, you would loose it and this could lead you to some fraudulent lists for false dispute.

    @Tayd You posted here (and not by screenshots) only the last response of Ishaq. But you didn't give us any other evidence. And you seem not to tell the truth.
    So, can you answer please these questions?

    • When did you order your vps and when did they delivered it to you? Seem that they delayed some hours and you asked a refund for that. Seem you didn't give them even a day to complete the order, even if they told you that they had some temporarily issues with their node due to DDoS attack. (I guess that this is the key, you heard of DDoS and you decided not to take the vps but ask for a refund)
    • Did you open the paypal dispute before or after they delivered the vps to you? And how long did you wait to open the paypal dispute, after the order? 10 hours? 24 or 3-4 days?
    • Can you realize that disputes are the last (and not immediate) resort if a company does scam the client? If a paypal dispute is used as pressure to a hosting company for giving a refund, then, the client looses every opportunity for a fair settlement of the case because he creates serious issues to the provider.
    • What makes you think that you have the right to bash a provider without real evidence?

    To fellow LET members: the last 30 days, I read more than a dozen bashing threads either from new members or members with almost zero participation toy the community. All of the threads was no-evidence garbage, except the one for vpsfast, where OP did support fully his claims by providing detailed timeline, proofs and screenshots. All the others, including Tayd and b6688 just provided garbage and/or false claims.
    For those who are supporting this kind of clients and their claims: this is why we cannot have nice things. Bashing, asking paypal disputes etc. is some of the main reasons that a lot of respected providers did abandon LET not willing to handle such "clients"...

    Thanked by 2angstrom Jordan
  • @jvnadr

    I have to admits that my mistake was I didn't open a pre-sales ticket before buying their services. Please note, I bought the "Reseller Hosting" for business use but not the Shared Hosting for Individual usage.

    Pageclick.net Reseller Hosting doesn't meet my business requirements so I leave it "idle" until I found something to fit with it. As I said, I didn't open Paypal dispute claim in this case.

    If you think my replied here are garbage or false claims, your comment are really Rubbish. I don't mind to show you the support ticket and services with them.

    [img]http://i.imgur.com/8gVB5rv.png[/img]

    [img]http://i.imgur.com/ywWlNhS.png[/img]

    As I said, the grey area will be under their Terms which can be found here. https://pageclick.net/terms

    They should amend/removed this condition which was not appropriate.

    19.3 PageClick will offer a full refund within 24 hours of first order. Within 7 days of first order, a partial refund will be offered, covering payment vendor fees.
    

    There will be no argument after this and the terms look clear to all of us.

    My Final Comment.

    I was not bashing the provider but I am just curious how many customers received the same message as mine. Nothing much.

    For those who want the Reseller Hosting with Dedicated IP, I will suggest that you look for https://buyshared.net/cpanel-reseller-hosting

    I will not provide any comments after this as it will spoilt my New Year mode.

    Wishing all of you a Happy Chinese Rooster New Year 2017!!!

  • williewillie Member
    edited February 2017

    1) Whatever the TOS says, Budgetnode looks bad here in holding OP to deal he entered by mistake when no or almost none of the 1 year service plan had actually been used. I'd like to have seen an offer of a refund less processing fees, or credit towards other Budgetnode services, or whatever. Budgetnode here comes across as cutthroat, maybe legal but not very attractive to potential customers imho. I know hosts are refund-averse but usually they will let you cancel a service with credit for the unused part towards other services.

    2) I agree there is unclarity in whether 19.3 (refund within 24h) is intended to be combined with 19.2 (refund only if service is not as described). When there's unclarity in a contract written by one party, it's usually interpreted in favor of the person who didn't write it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem

    In this case Budgetnode wrote the TOS so any unclarity in it is supposed to work to the other person's favor, not Budgetnode's. So I don't know who would win a PP dispute. At best it could go either way.

    3) The idea of no refund after 24h or 7d even if the service is not as described is also unsatisfying. Example: customer orders a 1 year plan, it's activated and works great, but then stops after 8 days. Oh whoops! You ordered a 1 year plan and got an 8 day plan, that's not what was described, but since it's more than 7 days, you're out of luck!

    4) Tone on both sides of the ticket wasn't good but part of the duty on the hosting side is to empathize with confused and/or irate customers, try to see things from their perspective and reach a mutually satisfactory resolution.

    So, sorry but this doesn't pass the smell test.

    Budgetnode, please try to do better!

    Thanked by 1Yura
  • XiNiXXiNiX Member, Host Rep
    edited February 2017

    @Tayd

    As far as i can understand, the problem here is the "communication gap" between the client and the provider. While you deserve a refund, given the fact that your service/product was not available, you still need to follow certain steps to get it. I suspect that BudgetNode made have seen a "pattern" ( Signup > Quick Refund Request > Dispute at PayPal ) which might explain their response.

    However, filing a dispute must be the last option.

    After you made the refund request, its ALWAYS recommended to have every communication directly with the provider ( not via PayPal ) . What most buyers miss, is the fact, that when you file a dispute, it takes an 'extra effort' to clear the situation. Worse, if its a chargeback, the provider may end up paying more than what he actually received !

  • @willie said:
    1) Whatever the TOS says, Budgetnode looks bad here in holding OP to deal he entered by mistake when no or almost none of the 1 year service plan had actually been used. I'd like to have seen an offer of a refund less processing fees, or credit towards other Budgetnode services, or whatever. Budgetnode here comes across as cutthroat, maybe legal but not very attractive to potential customers imho. I know hosts are refund-averse but usually they will let you cancel a service with credit for the unused part towards other services.

    Ordered by mistake? 1 year of service? Where are you getting this misinformation from?

    We would have gladly offered a refund minus processing fees or credit the customer's account in full should they have asked for it after service was delivered.

    There was an abnormal delay in delivering the order (less than 12 hours) and the customer requested a refund via ticket, not via the official cancellation procedure. Once all issues were resolved we provisioned the order, added a full extra day and updated the customer.

    Instead of insisting they wanted a refund after the service was delivered the customer immediately opened an official cancellation request along with a PayPal dispute.

    2) I agree there is unclarity in whether 19.3 (refund within 24h) is intended to be combined with 19.2 (refund only if service is not as described). When there's unclarity in a contract written by one party, it's usually interpreted in favor of the person who didn't write it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem

    In this case Budgetnode wrote the TOS so any unclarity in it is supposed to work to the other person's favor, not Budgetnode's. So I don't know who would win a PP dispute. At best it could go either way.

    They are part of the same section which states refunds will only be provided if the service received is not as advertised/described. We accurately describe our plans and services to ensure no misinformation is interpreted by potential customers and that all potential customers understand what is being provided and what they are ordering.

    3) The idea of no refund after 24h or 7d even if the service is not as described is also unsatisfying. Example: customer orders a 1 year plan, it's activated and works great, but then stops after 8 days. Oh whoops! You ordered a 1 year plan and got an 8 day plan, that's not what was described, but since it's more than 7 days, you're out of luck!

    That's not what the policy is for. If you buy a 1 year plan you are entitled to the full year of service. What are you suggesting? That all providers should provide a refund policy covering the entire billing period of the customer's services even if it's 1 or many years?

    The policy always works in the customer's favour as it holds us responsible to provide the service as described. There are plenty of providers that have a no refund policy and we could have implemented that as well, but we don't.

    4) Tone on both sides of the ticket wasn't good but part of the duty on the hosting side is to empathize with confused and/or irate customers, try to see things from their perspective and reach a mutually satisfactory resolution.

    The customer did not reach out in the first place, they only opened a dispute and cancellation request after the service was delivered in full and a billing extension applied for the slight delay in processing the order.

    We are happy to provide screenshots of any relevant tickets with the customer's permission.

  • I read through the tickets at http://i.imgur.com/ywWlNhS.png[/img] posted by b6688 further up: did they omit something?

    • I don't see that they opened a PP dispute. They discussed the possibility of opening one but it didn't look like one was actually opened.

    • Whether 19.2 and 19.3 are separate or connected is debatable (i.e. ambiguous) based on the discussion I saw. Yes your reading is reasonable, you don't have to convince me of that; but the other guy's is reasonable too, so a dispute over the interpretation would probably go against the drafting party.

    • Combining 19.2 and 19.3 per your prescription, you seem to mean that no refund is possible unless 1) refund is requested within 7 days of initial order, AND, 2) service is not as described. So e.g. if they ordered 1 year of service and got only 8 days, they didn't get what was described, but they can't ask for a refund because it's too late after 7 days. That seems to be the logic expressed in the tickets.

    Obviously if a service is not as described (e.g. a 1 year plan stops working after 8 days) then the seller has defaulted its obligations and the buyer is entitled to seek recourse no matter when the default happens. Outside of actual scamming or deadpool, something like that could happen if the service had to move out of its advertised location and the new location wasn't acceptable to the customer, or things like that. Reasonable compensation then would be cancellation at the customer's request, with credit or refund for the unused part of the plan.

    I don't see what difference it makes that the original cancellation request was through a ticket rather than the cancellation button.

    Yes please do post any other tickets or whatever. I'm used to the idea that people opening threads like this sometimes post tickets selectively, giving a one-sided story due to the omissions, even if the stuff they post is accurate.

    Thanks.

  • @willie

    They are completely different customers. Please re-read the OP.

  • budgetnode_thomas said:

    Ordered by mistake? 1 year of service? Where are you getting this misinformation from?

    Person thought he was ordering a 1 year plan with a dedicated IP. Plan didn't have a dedicated IP, oops. Order was a mistake.

    I'm tired, will look at the tickets and posts again tomorrow.

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