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How to get domain back from a disgruntled ex partner?
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How to get domain back from a disgruntled ex partner?

PepeSilviaPepeSilvia Member
edited December 2016 in Help

One of my friends has a restaurant here in Canada. She and a partner started it about 8 years ago, and the domain hosted at 1&1 is about that old. They registered a company together and registered the restaurant under that. The domain has the partner's name as contact, the company's name as organization and the restaurant address as contact info.

Recently my friend and her partner had a fallout, and the partner was kicked out. The restaurant was transferred to another parent company, and is still operating at the same location by the same name. The partner deleted the website and put up a blank page and all SEO links are just useless right now. It also left a whole bunch of customers confused and thinking they've closed down.

How can my friend get the domain back? The restaurant's name isn't trademarked unfortunately, which I understand would've sped up the process.

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Comments

  • whoever has the account on the domain registrar that purchased the domain wins!

    Thanked by 1PepeSilvia
  • There is no way to get it. Just follow it if its expires so you can backorder.

    Thanked by 1PepeSilvia
  • what account was used to pay for the domain. Was it the restaurants checking account/debit/credit? If so, perhaps this would then be considered an asset of the restaurant?

    Thanked by 1PepeSilvia
  • @ZiriusPH all the contact info has the restaurant's address on it, along with the partner's name, who no longer has access to the premises. Can't my friend claim the domain on the basis that it belongs to the restaurant?

  • MeanServersMeanServers Member, Host Rep

    Consult an attorney, you won't have much of a choice than other to battle it out in a courtroom.

    Thanked by 2PepeSilvia netomx
  • @PepeSilvia said:
    @ZiriusPH all the contact info has the restaurant's address on it, along with the partner's name, who no longer has access to the premises. Can't my friend claim the domain on the basis that it belongs to the restaurant?

    there's no way for your partner to take somebody's paid domain. He/She can contact the domain registrar to remove the said "contact name/info/address". But that's all.

    Just like what other said, just wait for it to expire and hopefully it won't get renewed. Why not just buy a new domain, its not like there's another service company hosted on your old domain.

    Thanked by 1PepeSilvia
  • @wht depends if its an asset of the restaurant or not. If it was paid for by the restaurant, then the individual doesn't own it. @MeanServers is correct - attorney is best way to go. However, might be first best to offer the ex partner 100-200 for their troubles and just transfer the domain if they agree. If not, I would create social media/blog/wordpress/domains in that persons name and put pages forwarding to the active restaurant while I work on getting domain back. I would also make sure all restaurant guides/tourist guides that I could find list an active domain for the restaurant and not the former kidnapped domain

    Thanked by 1PepeSilvia
  • @ziriusPH if it was an asset purchased by the restaurant and the assets were sold to the other company - then why does this individual control something they don't own. @meanservers is right - go to attorney

    Thanked by 1PepeSilvia
  • @OhMyMy said:
    @ziriusPH if it was an asset purchased by the restaurant and the assets were sold to the other company - then why does this individual control something they don't own. @meanservers is right - go to attorney

    "if"

    Thanked by 2OhMyMy PepeSilvia
  • jvnadrjvnadr Member
    edited December 2016

    Well, we have a lot of lawyers here! They know for sure that it is impossible to get the domain back! Sigh

    @PepeSilvia There are legal ways to claim the domain back. But you need lawyer and a lawsuit.
    If the restaurant is the same and the owning company changed, then your friend can claim to court that the domain is an asset of the restaurant and goes with the actual property (like the name of the restaurant etc.)
    The buyer of the domain bought it in favor of a company and a court can order to transfer it.
    If the domain is valuable for the restaurant (aka, if the lawsuit expenses are less important than the value of the domain), then, you can do it.
    I do not know about Canada (a lawyer can give you more details) but in EU, there are cases similar like yours that courts have ordered the registers of a domain to give it back to a company, even if the person that registered it refuses it.

    Thanked by 2OhMyMy PepeSilvia
  • @ziriusPH yep the big "if" and the "there's more to the story" and "oh by the way..." . To hold a $10 domain, there must be something driving the reason - otherwise not worth the trouble. The new company should at least trademark the name to decrease the value of holding it for the former partner

  • PepeSilviaPepeSilvia Member
    edited December 2016

    Just heard back from my friend. The domain isn't in the asset list, and the partner paid for it using a personal CC. The company then reimbursed her for those expenses.

  • @OhMyMy said:
    @ziriusPH yep the big "if" and the "there's more to the story" and "oh by the way..." . To hold a $10 domain, there must be something driving the reason - otherwise not worth the trouble. The new company should at least trademark the name to decrease the value of holding it for the former partner

    Long story short, the partner was stealing money. Got kicked out. Holding on to the domain as a petty revenge. The domain is valuable because of it's SEO rankings.

    • What's the legal status of the restaurant? Is it basically a persons (the friend and/or his ex-partner) or is it a company?
    • Who exactly has registered the domain? His ex-partner (as a person) or the restaurant (ideally as a company)?
      I'm asking because it's the legal entity, no matter whether legal or natural who is the registered owner. If it's the restaurant as a company (ideal case) then whoever represents the company can claim it.

    • Who has the de facto access to the registrars web site ("Domain administration")? If that is your friend then he may change the email address and then initiate a transfer.

    • The restaurants address is quite probably of little concern and not helpful. The decisive factor is the legal entity owning the domain.
    • 1&1 is a german company, so expect them to be bureaucratic and picky.
    Thanked by 1PepeSilvia
  • @bsdguy said:

    • What's the legal status of the restaurant? Is it basically a persons (the friend and/or his ex-partner) or is it a company?

    It's a company. It was under a different company when the ex-partner was in play, it's under another different company now. Both companies had only the restaurant as the sole entity.

    • Who exactly has registered the domain? His ex-partner (as a person) or the restaurant (ideally as a company)?

    I'm asking because it's the legal entity, no matter whether legal or natural who is the registered owner. If it's the restaurant as a company (ideal case) then whoever represents the company can claim it.

    The ex partner registered the domain. Not sure if it's registered as a person or as a company. All the contact details has the partner's name in the name field, the old company name as the organization name and the restaurant address in the address field.

    • Who has the de facto access to the registrars web site ("Domain administration")? If that is your friend then he may change the email address and then initiate a transfer.

    Unfortunately the partner has it. My friend is pretty much tech illiterate.

    • The restaurants address is quite probably of little concern and not helpful. The decisive factor is the legal entity owning the domain.

    How do I find out which legal entity owns the domain? All the info I have are from the whois page.

    • 1&1 is a german company, so expect them to be bureaucratic and picky.

    Oh yay :D

  • Then I have half good new for you. There might be some light at the end of the tunnel.

    The story is this: As you say the (old) company is entered as the owner organization.
    So, IFF you friend is a manager of the old company (it's the papers/company records that count) then he can talk to 1&1 as a representative of the company. He must, however, be able to demonstrate his role, ideally with a copy of the (old) companies official records.

    Reason: 1&1 ticks in terms of legal entities, not in terms of persons. Both can be the same but in your case the legal entity is the (old) company, who just happened to be represented by your friends ex-partner. Chances are that your friend was a director (or whatever the official term is in canada) of the restaurant company, too. If so, then he too can represent it.

    But although there seems to be a chance it will almost certainly be an ugly and painful (bureaucratic) path to walk.

    Good luck and feel free to contact me for assistance if you feel I can be of help (I'm over here in 1&1 country ...).

    Thanked by 1PepeSilvia
  • TL;DR
    Contact a lawyer, better with knowledge in trademarks.

  • gestiondbigestiondbi Member, Patron Provider

    @jvnadr said:
    TL;DR
    Contact a lawyer, better with knowledge in trademarks.

    As long they can prove it's to represent the restaurant and have been paid by the company, should be easy to fix in Canada by a lawyer.

    If it's a .ca, simply contact CIRA. They will help you, and maybe without even the lawyer need.

    Thanked by 2PepeSilvia netomx
  • PepeSilviaPepeSilvia Member
    edited December 2016

    @bsdguy said:
    Then I have half good new for you. There might be some light at the end of the tunnel.

    The story is this: As you say the (old) company is entered as the owner organization.
    So, IFF you friend is a manager of the old company (it's the papers/company records that count) then he can talk to 1&1 as a representative of the company. He must, however, be able to demonstrate his role, ideally with a copy of the (old) companies official records.

    Reason: 1&1 ticks in terms of legal entities, not in terms of persons. Both can be the same but in your case the legal entity is the (old) company, who just happened to be represented by your friends ex-partner. Chances are that your friend was a director (or whatever the official term is in canada) of the restaurant company, too. If so, then he too can represent it.

    But although there seems to be a chance it will almost certainly be an ugly and painful (bureaucratic) path to walk.

    Good luck and feel free to contact me for assistance if you feel I can be of help (I'm over here in 1&1 country ...).

    Oh that sounds excellent! Do you think 1&1 will attempt to handle it themselves, because on their domain dispute page it says "As a general rule, domain name disputes are handled through the UDRP".

    I have no problem dealing with bureaucracy, but I think my friend is afraid of lawyer expanses that might be involved in the UDRP route. I will however call up some lawyers on her behalf and try to get a ballpark figure.

    @davidgestiondbi unfortunately it's a .com :(

    Thank you for your suggestions everyone!

  • @davidgestiondbi said:

    @jvnadr said:
    TL;DR
    Contact a lawyer, better with knowledge in trademarks.

    As long they can prove it's to represent the restaurant and have been paid by the company, should be easy to fix in Canada by a lawyer.

    If it's a .ca, simply contact CIRA. They will help you, and maybe without even the lawyer need.

    That's Canada alright.

  • @PepeSilvia said:
    ... Do you think 1&1 will attempt to handle it themselves, because on their domain dispute page it says "As a general rule, domain name disputes are handled through the UDRP".

    Nope. The approach is to not let it come to a domain dispute. The approach is to handle it as just a very normal transfer as if everything was happy, happy and the restaurant company had for whatever innocent reasons decided to hand the domain to someone else - with only the twist that the former director isn't in charge any more, so the currently active director (your friend) makes an arrangement. That arrangement happens to be to give the domain to another company (the new restaurant company).

    Oh and: Unfortunately the current director, being rather IT agnostic, has forgotten to ask his predecessor for the data (login, password) of the web interface.

    All you do is to ask 1&1 for advice. Is it better if they somehow give the current director new access data to the domain admin interface or is it better if 1&1 just transfers the domain to the new company based on "old style" proceedings (fax, scanned official company register exerpt showing your friend to be a director). That's how you should present it.

  • While I agree not to go the UDRP route if possible, I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt 1&1 will agree to facilitate the transfer based on the info. (just too much exposure. Eg: If the paperwork was forged.) 1&1 will almost certainly respond by stating to contact the other party directly.
    Other than having the ex-partner acquiesce for couple/few hundred, a lawyer letter will be the minimum (that infers this will proceed to a civil matter presided before a judge) if the $$ or letter does not work.

  • Depends on whether the dogs wake up. And no, there is no exposure for 1&1 if his friend is a company director and can demonstrate it. Internal quarrels are not 1&1's problem. Their only question is whether someone is representing the company or not. If yes they are fully covered.

  • jvnadrjvnadr Member
    edited January 2017

    A register won't give a domain to another client, regardless the evidence. 1&1 is not a jury, it is a company. They cannot decide whether or not a claim is legal and right. If they give the domain they maybe get sued by the ex partner that kicked out from the restaurant company.
    The only way for OP's friend to get the domain back is either to prove that the domain was stolen (this is not the case) or get a court order based on facts (that the domain was pointed to the restaurant and should be its asset).
    Or, maybe, an easier way (intermediate) could be an extrajudicial from OP's friend to her ex company partner asking for the domain back or else he will get sued for holding a domain used to be a company's asset. Most people won't want to get to court just for revenge on something so small...

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • Three words: Small Claims Court

  • jvnadr

    A registrar will do what a customer decides and it's perfectly normal for non-natural legal entities (companies, organisations, ...) to have different representatives.

    True, 1&1 will not play judge, it will not decide who is the owner of a domain - that's why I advised against a dispute.

    My advice is to make use of the a.m. fact that the owner in this case happens to be a company which is represented by his friend as well as (formerly) his friends partner (iff his friend actually is a director). Such the matter can be handled not as a dispute but as a normal business process where it's perfectly normal (also for 1&1) that in, say 2014, director A handles things while in 2017 director B handles things.

    Whether the desired change is a domain transfer or and contact phone number change or an NS change is quite irrelevant; all of those are everyday business.

    Another reason for his friend to avoid a dispute is that a german company need not care about canadian judges. It's not uncommon that country A (where a judge ruled) has to forward that ruling through intergovernmental channels; a canadian ruling is per se not binding for a non-canadian company (like 1&1). Quite certainly it would work in the end but it would take a major amount of time and incur considerable legal costs (and damage for his friends restaurant).

  • A pretty fundamental thing to know before giving out an answer here is to know what the TLD is. Each registry has its own dispute policy.

    For .ca it is this: https://cira.ca/legal-policy-compliance/cdrp-process-and-decisions

  • jvnadrjvnadr Member
    edited January 2017

    bsdguy said: My advice is to make use of the a.m. fact that the owner in this case happens to be a company which is represented by his friend as well as (formerly) his friends partner (iff his friend actually is a director). Such the matter can be handled not as a dispute but as a normal business process where it's perfectly normal (also for 1&1) that in, say 2014, director A handles things while in 2017 director B handles things.

    OK, but I don't think the two parts are having such a relationship that can handle the situation this way (today's domain owner was kicked out of the company due to stealing money, as OP said).
    For a smooth transfer, the current domain owner must agree. If not, then, there has to be a court order.
    Now, 1&1 is an international company. They seem that they don't have physical location in Canada, but they have local offices in a lot of countries (e.g. US, UK, France etc.), so, they will probably handle this even if the court order will be from Canada.

    In any case, 1&1 has nothing to do with a lawsuit. OP's friend will not go against 1&1 in court, but against the former company partner, that is Canadian.
    If a court in Canada oblige a Canadian civilian to fulfill an order (e.g. return a domain to his ex partner), then, 1&1 has nothing to do with it. The ex partner should follow the order and do the transfer himself, or HE will face the law.
    It will be a battle for a product between two Canadians. The company that produces the product has nothing to do with this lawsuit.

  • OhMyMyOhMyMy Member
    edited January 2017

    @ricardo a pretty fundamental thing is to read the thread and you will see that its a .com

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • jvnadr

    I know it's confusing but the domain owner is not his friends partner. The domain owner is the friends (and ex-partners) company.

    Whoever is a director (or whatever the correct term in any jurisdiction is) of that company represents the owner.

    If I'm worried then not about that but about the friends who, Pardon, was so bloody stupid and ignorant to not care shit about "them IT things" because types like that also tend to not take care about "you know, administration stuff"; so it's well possible that (s)he is not a director (although (s)he might think otherwise).

    If she is really a legal representative of that company then that whole domain issue is largely a non-issue if they play it smart.

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