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What uptime should we expect out of our LEB?

What uptime should we expect out of our LEB?

joshuatlyjoshuatly Member
edited July 2012 in General

Want to ask for opinion, actually what should we expect for the LEB we paid for? Should we really expect for 99.99% uptime? Well, uptime is the most critical issue here. As I heard BlueVM said for a few times, if you expect high uptime, go pay for dedicated. Although they say so, they do have a good SLA, and they do credit back to your account accordingly if there is a downtime. BUT back to the question, would you really use LEB to host "mission critical" stuff?

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  • 99.9% excluding planned maintenance and outages with good reasons (hardware failure, node kernel updates, etc.)

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  • flyfly Member

    no. i got kinda burned by corgitech just now when they needed to emergency reboot their shiz as i was in the middle of editing some stuff. but keep in mind most of these hosts (corgitech) are good about it.... hardware / network isn't magic. stuff goes down because .

  • @dmmcintyre3 said: 99.9% excluding planned maintenance and outages with good reasons (hardware failure, node kernel updates, etc.)

    Oh another question, for those "reasonable outages", especially hardware failure, anyone actually claim the SLA for credit? Sometimes I feel bad to claim it since im not paying much for it, and a few hours downtime most of the time render the whole month VPS usage for free... should I? Do they earn enough to pay back my money? Mine is hard earn money too :P

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  • netomxnetomx Member

    @joshuatly said: should I?

    I don't, if the downtime is not so long.

  • Sure! Often the only difference between a LEB and a higher-priced VPS could be... only the cost. But of course a dedicated may provide you with better uptime (less factors to consider, not shared, etc). Most providers off a guarantee and/or SLA Credit Program which may be enough to re-pay you for your loss.

    If you require 100% uptime, maybe a LEB isn't the best option. Look at dedicated servers: you see many reviews of various providers, their uptime isn't 100% either!

    The path continues and brings us to a "high-quality", possibly more expensive, Dedicated provider which will guarantee 100% and has great reviews backing that up. <--If "mission critical". Etc, etc :)

    I'd suggest going for whatever meets you budget and looks promising and/or has great reviews. Not sure this answers your question exactly but overall, I would expect from a LEB provider: What they tell me to expect (such as 99.9% uptime guarantee)

    -Eric

    CubixCloud Web Services - e.andrews@[email protected]
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  • @joshuatly said: Oh another question, for those "reasonable outages", especially hardware failure, anyone actually claim the SLA for credit? Sometimes I feel bad to claim it since im not paying much for it, and a few hours downtime most of the time render the whole month VPS usage for free... should I? Do they earn enough to pay back my money? Mine is hard earn money too :P

    If it was unreasonable downtime, I claim the credit.

  • Define:> @netomx said: not so long

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  • KuJoeKuJoe Member
    edited July 2012

    In my experience...

    2 LEBs in different locations = better uptime than 1 high end VPS (and usually a lot cheaper)

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, TX, and AZ
    Test our network here: Drgn.biz
  • @KuJoe said: 2 LEBs in different locations = better uptime than 1 high end VPS (and usually a lot cheaper)

    how do you loadbalance? DNS?

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  • KuJoeKuJoe Member

    @joshuatly said: how do you loadbalance? DNS?

    I use DNS failover at the moment (using 3 LEBs) but have been looking into other methods (i.e. 2 nginx or varnish proxies + 2 webservers).

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, TX, and AZ
    Test our network here: Drgn.biz
  • netomxnetomx Member

    @joshuatly said: Define:> @netomx said: not so long

    Like, 3 hours?

  • PADPAD Member
    edited July 2012

    lebHAProxy > leb1 > leb2 > so on

  • How much ram do i need for HAProxy? How low end can my haproxy box be?

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  • And what happens if exactly the HAProxy box gets down?

  • JarJar Member

    100%. Why expect less than perfection? If my provider doesn't consider 100% uptime to be a goal, no matter their price, they are no longer my provider. You should never sell a product while saying to yourself "I expect my product to be consistently less than perfect." It's alright that it is, it's just not alright when you're totally satisfied with it and aren't constantly trying to think of ways to be better.

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  • TazTaz Disabled

    Why should you sacrifice uptime? 99.9% should be a industry standard. Unless some good reason for outage is available, provider should provide you guranteed uptime. The only thing that might/should differ between a LEB and HEB is price and spec. Not quality of the product. My 2c.

    Time is good and also bad. Life is short and that is sad. Dont worry be happy thats my style. No matter what happens i won't lose my smile!

  • PADPAD Member

    LiquidHost :

    DNS auto-failover onto second HAProxy - not hard.

    As I say, loadbalancing the loadbalancers.

    Obviously this is just taking things one step further and may be seen as being too advanced, but I find if you can afford it why not, its gonna be cheaper than most other options for high levels of redundancy.

  • @PAD How do you sync mysql in real time? Remote mysql server?

  • PADPAD Member
    edited July 2012

    http://rackerhacker.com/2008/01/03/mysql-replication-redundancy/

    Converting a slave to a master if the master goes down is easily automated - when building your own redundant system you shouldn't have trouble coding basic PHP monitoring which can detect these things and do anything that needs to be done to solve a situation.

  • @NinjaHawk said: The only thing that might/should differ between a LEB and HEB is price and spec. Not quality of the product.

    But it should be kept in mind that lowend providers often have very small staff, or even operate solo. That can affect response time and their ability to deal with multiple simulataneous issues.

  • miTgiBmiTgiB Member

    @sleddog said: But it should be kept in mind that lowend providers often have very small staff, or even operate solo.

    This is the one I think many are overlooking. Everyone wants to pay less for anything, it makes us all happy, but then they expect a top of the line experience, and that just isn't realistic. You have to trade something to gain the lower price, and support is the most common trade off I see in the LEB space. Personally, I do not offer any SLA, I provide the service on a best effort, meaning I will put my best effort to insuring you get what you paid me for, and if something fails along the way, I will put my best effort into making you whole again. I do buy better hardware to insure my best effort is good enough to make most happy, but when I see thoughts about what SLA would you demand from your LEB provider, it just stinks of how entitled do you really think you are, should I be paying you to be my customer in your mind?

    Hostigation High Resource Hosting - SolusVM OpenVZ/KVM VPS
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  • SLA? What SLA? This is LEB ffs

  • SpiritSpirit Administrator
    edited July 2012

    I don't measure uptime quality in % but in frequency of downtimes. Things can go wrong with every host and they will.. sooner or later. Hardware die, network issues, something... and if this happens twice or thrice per year, even if it takes more than hour to fix issue.. it's fine by me. What I really dislike are regular downtimes, reboots, etc.. even if it takes mostly only minute or so to server come back online. Some hosts from some reason can't maintain even 2 - 3 weeks of uptime and this is what really annoys me.

  • In theory SLA is just a commitment to the customer that in event of downtime exceeding a certain time, customer will rebated at an pre-agreed rate. Yet to most customers anything less that 99.9% generally think that you are unreliable. To providers, we're just accounting possible failure and turn around time to get things fixed.

    Personally, 99.9% uptime on any service that is reliant on a single point of failure is nothing more than a marketing gimmick. 99.9% means you can only have 43 minutes of downtime a month. If nothing goes wrong, 100% uptime isn't a problem. But when the worst happens (catastrophic failure), am I expected to believe that the provider can commission a new server and restore data within a span of 43 minutes? For VPS if you have a spare server around and your customers are willing to accept a clean VPS, sure that may work, but is that really the SLA customers are expecting? Even dell hardware replacement is generally within 4 hours.

    Whether it's low end VPS, or high end VPS, as long as there's a single point of failure, customer expectations has to be realistic. LEB is a great idea if you're selling to the right people, aka server admins who (1) know how to optimize the server, (2) constantly take backups and (3) have a game plan when the server goes down to keep their servers running. Most LEB providers don't provide backups, prices are so low there's no way there's some redundant SAN backing the storage, plenty single points of failure. Most people who complain are expecting LEBs to have all the perks of a full VPS service but at dirt cheap prices. If nothing goes wrong, sure LEBs are a huge cost saving. But when something goes wrong they are the first to shoot at the provider because they were guaranteed 99.9% uptime and put all their eggs in 1 very low cost basket.

    "Sorry for the downtime and complete loss of data, we'll rebate/refund you $5 for this month's downtime. I'm sorry for your loss of income of $10,000, web design cost of $5,000."

    TL;DR: (1) Realistic customer expectations, 99.9% uptime only covers 43mins to fix minor issues (2) Backup backup backup, business continuity plan in event of downtime

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  • NickMNickM Member

    I expect 100% uptime, minus maintenance and other unavoidable downtime. If a downtime event is completely avoidable but still happens (a single user abusing CPU and bringing the node down, the server running out of hard drive space, stuff like that which can be prevented), then I have a problem. Node needs a reboot for a kernel upgrade? Fine. Need to do maintenance on your rack's power strips? Fine. Just let me know ahead of time so that I can prep for it.

    Lead Developer - HostGuard Control Panel

  • PADPAD Member

    @NickM

    Notices sent out by hosts for planned downtime is/should be a standard, so that's all great, but it should also be standard for consumers to work out their own plan when a LEB goes down. I find it pretty stupid that the customer expects the host to check all the boxes while they relax and sit back with ignorance - because even though the host normally will do everything in their power to avoid downtime, and it is standard to go through all of these procedures, it is NOT AN EXCUSE to slack on your own regime of avoiding loss, downtime, etc.

    The standard should be applied both ways.

  • @kbar said: scheduled maintenance != downtime

    If it brings customer services down then yes, it is. But it's "scheduled downtime".

  • gsrdgrdghdgsrdgrdghd Member without signature

    @kbar said: hardware isn't magic.

    That doesn't change that scheduled maintenance isn't downtime if it brings customer services down .

  • MikHoMikHo Member

    This may sound tough, but I do expect that my vps from any LEB provider should stay online and accessible as close as possible to 100%. in my honest opinion, if you as a provider is happy with a 99.9% uptime, you are doing it wrong.

    I do understand that many providers are a one man show (or only a few good men) but that i understand when I buy it. If I required 24/7 support I would look somewhere else.

    I accept the TOS when I sign up that the vps is unmanaged, meaning that if I fuck up something in my os, its my responsibility to fix it. Or do a reinstall. But its the providers responsibility to keep my vps accessible, aka online. Its also in the providers interest to keep their control panel online so I can reboot/reinstall whenever I like ( if this option is available)

    as a customer I really don't care on how you do your job or make your profit selling "lowend boxes". I'm just glad you are around for me.

    The providers here that I have services with probably know that I dont send in tickets for every little thing. I always try to fix my own mess. Bottom line is, I pay for lowend resources, not lowend quality. Which I have recieved from the providers I still have services with.

  • gsrdgrdghdgsrdgrdghd Member without signature

    @MikHo said: in my honest opinion, if you as a provider is happy with a 99.9% uptime, you are doing it wrong.

    To be fair 99.99% is just an hour of downtime during a whole year which is absolutely fine.

  • MikHoMikHo Member

    @gsrdgrdghd then you already accepted that you will fail. Instead of working towards 100% , I bet you are already coming up with excuses for that unplanned 1 hour downtime?

    I understand that there are things that can happen thats out of the providers control. Nevertheless I'm sure many providers do every last thing to minimize those things. If they are not, they will end up in trouble.

  • TazTaz Disabled

    Murphy Murphy Murphy!

    Time is good and also bad. Life is short and that is sad. Dont worry be happy thats my style. No matter what happens i won't lose my smile!

  • @MikHo It is impossible to keep the uptime at 100%. The provider that offer 100% uptime cost around 10 times more than the most expensive lowendbox. Simply impossible to run on such a small profit margin and at the same time have enough money to have high-availability cluster. And in my experience, clients are satisfied with 99+ % uptime, so am I on every server I rent.

  • JackJack Member

    To be honest though I don't know any host that would want downtime?

    I think as long as they give a reason I'm not fussed.

  • Hardware might always break so you cannot expect anything.

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  • miTgiBmiTgiB Member

    @Jack said: I don't know any host that would want downtime?

    Hostbluff?

    Hostigation High Resource Hosting - SolusVM OpenVZ/KVM VPS
  • JackJack Member

    @miTgiB said: Hostbluff?

    Apart from them.

  • telephonetelephone Member
    edited July 2012

    Personally I don't mind 99.9% or 99.8% as I usually have IP failovers or a backup ready to go, but what gets to me is how some providers handle downtime:

    Situation: Unknown downtime for an extended period of time, or fluctuating downtime (up 10 minutes, down for 10 minutes). #1 - I expect to be informed that you're experiencing downtime. It doesn't have to be through email, but at least have a status page that one can refer to. #2 - I shouldn't have to send a support ticket later that day to receive a vague answer of "there was a problem, it's fixed now". #3 - NO NO NO. I do not want to follow you on Twitter to receive updates! (Post public updates if you use Twitter)

    I've protested these points in the past with no avail. In general it's not asking a lot and could save you answering the same "downtime" ticket 100 times.

    Even a hacked together status page would be beneficial: - When a server is reported down via your internal network (after 2/3 checks) - Have a script that posts to the status page:

    Date & Time - Node#2 has been reported as down. 
    Tech support have been alerted, please stand by for an update.
  • miTgiBmiTgiB Member

    @telephone said: NO NO NO. I do not want to follow you on Twitter to receive updates!

    I hear you but that is where the info is. I can show you were the water is, I can't help it if you refuse to drink it. I actually use twitter as little as possible, but if my website is inaccessible, I have to do something, and twitter is linked with the company facebook page so 2 birds.

    Hostigation High Resource Hosting - SolusVM OpenVZ/KVM VPS
  • I found "DDOS attack on our server" used frequently as one of the reason for downtime, do you think this reason is "reasonable"?

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  • PatsPats Member
    edited July 2012

    @joshuatly said: reason is "reasonable"

    'reasonable' is in the minds of client, some may find it reasonable and some may not. And those who find it reasonable would still want to know the steps taken to avoid the situation in future. If the attacks tend to become regular then 'noone would be there' to find it reasonable.

    i do expect 100% or 99.9% uptime, with proper intimation ahead of any maintenance.

  • PatsPats Member

    @PAD said: DNS auto-failover onto second HAProxy - not hard.

    As I say, loadbalancing the loadbalancers.

    we'd love a How-To as separate topic :)

  • MikHoMikHo Member

    @liquidhost Theres a huge difference between SLA and a providers own goal regarding uptime. I think you misunderstand my point.

    And as discussed earlier, scheduled maintenance is an exception that will not count on the offered uptime.

    I also think that the providers choice of hardware has a huge impact on the quality of service ( speaking with accessibility in mind, not diskspeed or vcpu cycles) And if this hardware is monitored in a good way, problems usually shows in those logs before the "accident" happens. And if you know there will be problems theres always a way to keep downtime to a minimum while fixing the problem.

    Im in the business where we offer our customers a HA environment. We tell the customer that they can expect 99.99% uptime but our goal is 100%.

  • @joshuatly said: BUT back to the question, would you really use LEB to host "mission critical" stuff?

    I always said LEBs are not for mission critical stuff. That being said, since they are so cheap, you can always set up some redundancy and there are also some high quality providers that dont cave in under attacks, but s**t happens to everyone, some switch, some cable, some upstream failure, even hacks were not uncommon, so, back up often and put up some redundancy if you really need 100% uptime. M

    Nobody here.

  • MikHoMikHo Member

    @Maounique said: mission critical stuff.

    @joshuatly define mission critical?

    If I had a low resources application/site then why not? Its not that the Providers around here would give you any worse services then a high-end Provider.

  • Expensive providers fail too, downtime can be only prevented that much, expensive providers just have more budget to factor in redundancy. As a system(s) admin, if you know where the possible failures are, and plan for it, then it really doesn't matter if you're using a LEB or a Cloud service, or whether you're hosting your personal site or a mission critical site, maximum uptime can still be achieved.

    Asia VPS | Asia Dedicated Server OneAsiaHost - Singapore based Asia-Centric VPS & Dedicated Servers
  • HalfEatenPieHalfEatenPie Member
    edited July 2012

    @MikHo said: If I had a low resources application/site then why not? Its not that the Providers around here would give you any worse services then a high-end Provider.

    Its similar to a shared hosting is what @Maounique is saying.

    Lets say another person on the node was abusing the server in terms of I/O and bandwidth. Even if you're not getting the traffic, your speed and I/O can and will be affected by this. Or if someone decides to just crash the server (we're all thinking hypothetical people) and they just happened to get it to shut down, then your VPS is also down. If you want complete isolation then its probably best to go with a dedicated.

    This is why I say its similar to shared hosting.

    Mission Critical is also known as something that cannot possibly go down (if it goes down, everything goes down type deal).

    Edit: and just like what @Kenshin said, everyone can/will fail at some point or another. Bigger companies just have more safety nets before they fall into the water.

    Catalyst Host - Pie Approved!
  • PADPAD Member

    @Pats

    Maybe I will write one, but I would need to find a substitute for the software which I have created myself, since it is not something I am willing to release publicly. (Created a fully redundant H/A cluster which is fully automated and can be left alone with absolutely no interaction needed.)

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