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Customer who's DDoS was mitigated still complains - Page 4
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Customer who's DDoS was mitigated still complains

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Comments

  • likexianlikexian Member
    edited October 2012

    @serverbear changed

  • @Taz_NinjaHawk Beats me. I didn't start any of this however I can't be expected to sit idle and not defend my business. Some customers like to bring drama to public forums before even submitting their first ticket. There is not much I can do about that, I cannot control the actions of other people.

  • TazTaz Member

    @vpsnodebox said: @Taz_NinjaHawk Beats me. I didn't start any of this however I can't be expected to sit idle and not defend my business. Some customers like to bring drama to public forums before even submitting their first ticket. There is not much I can do about that, I cannot control the actions of other people.

    Dude, Chillux. It is getting late. Go to sleep. You are on a high pitch today :D

  • @likexian I appreciate your thoughts. I have not deleted your VPS (it's in the queue), so you can return to us if you want to. No charge. If you like the service you can renew it at the beginning of the next month.

  • @vpsnodebox said: @Taz_NinjaHawk Beats me. I didn't start any of this however I can't be expected to sit idle and not defend my business. Some customers like to bring drama to public forums before even submitting their first ticket. There is not much I can do about that, I cannot control the actions of other people.

    well, i have talking enough on the chat, if you can give me the log, there won't be this thread.

  • kbeeziekbeezie Member
    edited October 2012

    I'm thinking @Chief should change topic to: "When a customer blackmails a provider". Oh, I mean (refunded) ex-customer.

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • @vpsnodebox if you can throw me an email AFETR stop/pause the vps, if there was an attack, lost some money, some time to find out what happen, give me a credible reasons, i won't care about return. it is not a problem that i double pay.

    to be true, i use vps just for website, i havn't got any attack in the past 5 years with U.S.A. vps experience. i just use less than 10G of traffic per month per vps. i think i am kind enough.

  • fanfan Veteran

    @vpsnodebox said: pushed to extremes and threatened

    Public forums have moderators, give proof and you can pretty well defend yourself against false accusations.

    @vpsnodebox said: for US providers
    @vpsnodebox said: unbiased and incorruptible

    It's your freedom to choose your customers, but do you really need to mention "unbiased" ? You still left your previous discussions here.

  • KenshinKenshin Member
    edited October 2012

    @likexian Did you check SolusVM's statistics page? Wouldn't the attack be graphed there? I'm not sure if it's on 5 minute or 1 minute average, but unless they filtered it that quickly, something should show on the graph during the attack.

    One thing you need to understand about DDOS attacks, they happen very quickly and usually because of the number of incoming IPs the incoming are not logged. Not to mention they may be spoofed so there's no real point in logging either. You mentioned your bandwidth didn't jump much, but it might be stopped very quickly so it didn't affect the traffic counter enough. The graph in SolusVM logs bytes/sec over a period of time, you should get firm numbers there.

    *PS: I'm not trying to defend vpsnodebox, I'm just trying to help likexian understand a provider's POV.

  • likexianlikexian Member
    edited October 2012

    @Kenshin yes, i have checked it, it is very normal. but vpsnodebox say that the datacenter null ip immediately, and then the pannel will not show anything about it, which i have double doubt.

    if there is a attack, the traffic graph wil show more or less.

  • @likexian Your own words: "i have not start a website on it" - which means that you claimed that you had no website running on it. Are you now changing your story?

    @fan A provider doesn't have the luxury of knowing how a customer will behave and use his services but only after said customer signs up. This should change.

  • Epic thread fail is epic.

  • likexianlikexian Member
    edited October 2012

    @vpsnodebox up to now, there is of course no website on it, everything is on debug and i have not move any website on it, to be true, i have just install the os, you can double check the log(but i am sorry that you have no any log).

  • thanks to all, i won't on this thread any more, please leave it going down.

  • Like I said on the promo page which you spammed, if a hard drive were to crash in a server, should we mail you the hard drive so you can verify the validity of this? Does that sound reasonable?

    Also as Kenshin said, SolusVM's graphing is handled via a cron job and certain bursts will not get recorded, also high degree of rapid incoming connections may be caught by the datacenter's own equipment before it has enough time to reach your own VPS, when that gets nulled your VPS if any data is recorded would just simply see a lack of incoming traffic.

    How do you think the staff at the datacenter is going to respond if we treat them in the same manner you been treating us, demanding logs and every other indication just to prove that there was an attack, and that we don't trust that the datacenter's equipment actually stopped an attack.

  • @likexian
    It's possible that they reacted very quickly, a large DDOS is easily detectable. If they are reliant on their datacentre's filtering, then it's highly possible the datacentre doesn't keep logs. You need to remember, while they are one company, the datacentre would be filtering for many companies/servers, and DDOS may be a daily/hourly event, the amount of logs of packets would be huge and never-ending. The lack of logs may seem like an evasion tactic to you, but is honestly very common in a datacentre environment due to the amount of traffic going by everyday.

    I understand that the sudden disruption of your service may have caused huge inconvenience to you, but in defense of many providers here who are reliant on their datacentre/upstream for filtering I'll say this;

    If your service is down, the provider loses money because (1) you may cancel; (2) other affected customers may cancel. No provider would want to nullroute your IPs for no reason. Keeping your money is the most important part of a provider's business, the longer you stay, the happier you are and the happier the provider's pockets are.

    Cool down, give your provider the benefit of the doubt. End of the day, they don't benefit from null routing you on purpose or by mistake. Same goes to your provider's (vps company) provider (datacentre), they won't want to null route for no good reason either. Remember, the provider isn't out to deny you service, they're out to make money from you, and that involves keeping your service up as long as possible.

    Thanked by 1likexian
  • @kenshin it should be pointed out that very early in this thread likexian was already fully refunded for his VPS as he was clearly dissatisfied with Marc's answer to him. He just keeps pegging and pegging and pegging, including spamming the promo page with a link to this thread. Simply put because we use hardware DDOS protection provided by the datacenter we simply cannot give him relevant logs.

  • @kbeezie
    I'm well aware how reliant most of the VPS providers are on their upstream/datacentre. Like I said in my reply, I'm not surprised by the lack of logs by the datacentre, it's common and normal IF you're in the industry. vpsnodebox (company) is taking for granted that the customer understands this "industry standard".

    likexian already took down the ticket conversation, but when I read it earlier I don't recall vpsnodebox (company) explaining this in detail to likexian. Most of the replies were defensive in nature, if I read it as a customer, I don't feel assured, of course I'd be questioning.

    This thread would have ended in the first few posts if vpsnodebox (company) simply replied "We sincerely apologize but because we use hardware DDOS protection provided by the datacenter we simply cannot provide relevant logs."

  • we need proof :) don't just say you got ddos, remembering me about linode :)

    if vpsnodebox can'n show the proof maybe any other reason ? and blame ddos as reason?

  • @Kenshin :P If I had gotten to him first it probably would have ended that way. I can't discuss most of the internal issues going on, but lets just say a majority of the abusers (primarily Chinese and windows users) we've caught have been getting quite aggressive in their ticket response, and with an unmanaged service (I'm used to managing people so I guess it's my nature to be diplomatic from the get-go) you run into the pitfall that is you expect a customer who signs up for an unmanaged (ie: self-managed) service to know well enough some of the infrastructure involved. Clearly this was not one of those cases.

  • @tommy That would be pure speculation on your part and we're not a large company like linnode that collocates hundreds of servers in various datacenters globally (yet), as kenshin mentioned we rely on the datacenter at the present time to provide us with DDOS protection, they're not a liberty to provide us with the finer details unless of course we were to purchase our own firewall system strictly for us, because maybe then we'd have the full luxury to log every packet of data to our own sweet content. I wouldn't expect many of the one-man-shops to be able to provide such logs either unless they were actually taken down (and then would be dealing with more problems than just an ex-customer demanding logs).

    It's like that old phrase goes, to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you can really understand.

  • @kbeezie i am planing to stop repling, but i have to say: you can not trust me as thief and getting angry and angry just because some other Chinese and windows users are abusers. if that I have nothing to say.

  • @likexian maybe it's the language barrier I'm not sure, but I am not saying that you are being considered the same as the rest of them, I am merely saying that the situation simply could have been handled better and I feel that given the recent events that could have been a possible contributor.

    Thanked by 1likexian
  • eLohkCalbeLohkCalb Member
    edited October 2012

    @Kenshin said: This thread would have ended in the first few posts

    That's a much x 10 better PR.

  • likexianlikexian Member
    edited October 2012

    @kbeezie linode won't become a large company at the begining of time, they offer good and stable service and then getting biger and biger.

    by the way, they don't discrimination chinese users(at least on my point), any time i got an issue, they answer patiently and carefully and of course detailed.

  • @kbeezie said: you expect a customer who signs up for an unmanaged

    Yes, and the customer expects you to keep logs of the DDOS as well. This is just going to turn into a finger pointing game. Fix this wavelength difference between vpsnodebox (company) and the customer first.

    I'm not going to try to tell you how to run your business, but like every case that pops out on LET, there are two sides to a story, customer has their point of view, so does the provider. Rather than escalate the thread to this level because of @vpsnodebox need to defend the company, communicating with the customer in private would have probably reduced the amount of finger pointing between vpsnodebox and likexian.

    Thanked by 1Spirit
  • @kenshin I'm brand new to vpsnodebox, I don't own/run it, but I'm hoping that given the recent situation I'll be able to adapt this trainwreck (for lack of a better word) into an example of how things could be handled differently by all the staff. I was bought on board primarily for those choosing managed support, so as you can imagine I'm used to the hand-holding. Needless to say pressing forward there will probably be a bit of internal brainstorming on how to approach a day with a large volume of human-related issues. That's about as much as I can say about that right now.

  • KenshinKenshin Member
    edited October 2012

    @kbeezie
    It's not about hand holding, it's basic customer service/PR. I already chided @vpsnodebox in a separate thread over how he told Jack off with a high and mighty attitude. Now it's the pure defensive "we didn't do anything wrong" stance with a customer that escalated into a drama thread in LET. This behavior is what is getting vpsnodebox (company) all the negativity.

    Yes, I agree vpsnodebox (company) didn't do anything wrong, they were protecting their business interest by null routing the attacked IP. As a business owner, lose $7 and retain $700. There's not much that needs to be said, anyone in vpsnodebox (company) position would have done the same. The entire problem started when vpsnodebox (company) couldn't get the trust of the customer regarding whether the attack happened or not. Instead of assuring the customer to rebuild the trust and getting back to the same page, the defensive position was taken and the customer felt even worse. Not every customer is trying to get money back, some just want answers. Like you said, probably a wrong time for the company due to the other cases, likexian was assumed to be of the same group of abusers you were dealing with.

    In other words, this applies to every other provider as well, but a service provider should work with their customers privately to resolve issues and not need to drag it into LET for dirty linen airing. I can do with the occasionally drama that's brought over from WHT, but it's quite sad that I need to see the bickering between a LET provider and customer, in LET itself. As a provider, generally I don't want to step foot in the thread since it involves a fellow provider, so I generally keep my fingers shut in LET.

    Thanked by 1likexian
  • PhoenixVPSPhoenixVPS Member
    edited October 2012

    @Kenshin I was taking care of his DDoS attack and he wouldn't wait another minute or two for the information, so he started being rude and after that he started posting here. If you read this thread I extended to him every possible courtesy and I refunded him without he even asking for a refund just so that I could establish communication between me and him. But he wouldn't have it. On the other hand he has good reason to be worried because he doesn't know for sure if he managed to delete all of his data of his VPS, and if I was him I would be worried to. That is all I can say, as I won't discuss customer details on a public forum.

  • @vpsnodebox Mate, I think where you're running into trouble is that you're so defensive about everything.

    There's no need to come out fighting in every thread that mentions your service (although I understand the natural inclination to do do), most people here know the difference between a genuine issue with a provider and a disgruntled customer being a tool (not that I'm judging either in this instance), so I think you might be better served letting some conversations running their course without getting stuck in.

    Just my two pennies worth :-)

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