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Opinions needed, Xen - KVM - OpenVZ

Opinions needed, Xen - KVM - OpenVZ

AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member
edited August 2012 in General

Hi Folks,

I don't think it is very likely that Inception Hosting will be standing up any further Xen nodes once the current stock is exhausted (pretty close).

I am not looking for any "OpenVZ SUX" type replies here I am just wondering what the community would rather see out of the following 3 options/directions:

1) Don't stop doing Xen you crazy fool..! 2) KVM is the future, get with the times,,! 3) A cheaper OpenVZ option would be nice to see but it seems pointless in the day and age.

I am leaning towards option 2

Ant.

Inception Hosting Xen VPS in UK | NL | Miami | Phoenix | Windows/Linux/BSD | also check out lowendspirit €3.00 p/year OpenVZ in UK/NL/IT/USA

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Comments

  • Xen-PV is still ok even with the KVM craze. OVZ keeps evolving, it is lean and fast, but not compatible enough. I think Xen is not finished. But I like it too much so I am probably not unbiased. M

    I am only representing myself :)

  • InfinityInfinity Retired Staff

    2 and 3 ;)

    我是一个巨魔 (;

  • JackJack Member

    I say you should do; 10 nodes of XEN-PV I guess you're already there you were on 8 last time I spoke with you.

    10 nodes of KVM

    10 nodes of ovz

  • I would choose 2 and 3.

    And if you still curious, I have some idea :D Setup a node for each virtualization, and ask for user to test them. You will see which one running out of stock so fast, and that's what people want for.

    Another one, ask the user to hammering the node, and then see which one will survive :p. Just like I did in Indonesian Webhosting Forum, and I only succeded in creating load to 600

    www.erawanarifnugroho.com - powered by Prometeus XenBiz | Server Uptime status - powered by Prometeus Xen Pune
    I'm not working for any providers in here, all my comments just my own opinion.
  • It depends :) While keeping the company small it would probably be wise to not try to do every type of virtualisation. It will create more "administrative" tasks on yourself to keep everything patched and updated.

    I think that openvz has its place in the lev community but theres also alot of providers using it. The only real thing you would be able to get customers is based on your server locations.

    When looking on the types of vps that I have, I'm still looking for my first kvm. So regarding your given options: 2

    I would personally like to see a provider offer vsphere 5. Thats something new for the lowen market.

  • Pick either XenPV or KVM (I'm happy with either)

    and add in a couple OpenVZ nodes.

    join us on IRC - #lowendbox on irc.freenode.net

  • My vote also goes to 2 & 3.

  • flyfly Member

    1 or 2.

    every host ever has openvz. what makes people want to pick your service over others? My reason before was because you had xen pv, which allowed me to run archlinux. And at the time I didn't have a good provider in a good location in Europe with ipv6, instant rdns, gigabit uplink, and quality disk. If you still had the other qualities after switching to openvz, you might be able to get away with it. Otherwise, I would go kvm.

    Thanked by 2samjk Maounique
  • @AnthonySmith said: I am leaning towards option 2

    Why are pushing back xen?

    IperWeb & Prometeus, Hosting Provider since 1997. iwStack cloud infrastructure
  • @AnthonySmith said: OpenVZ option would be nice to see but it seems pointless in the day and age.

    Definitely not pointless if done right.

    RamNode: High Performance SSD and SSD-Cached VPS
    Atlanta - Seattle - Netherlands - IPv6 - DDoS Protection - AS3842
  • bretonbreton Member
    edited August 2012

    What's the difference for me, as for a customer, between Xen and KVM? Except OS installs from ISOs

  • MaouniqueMaounique Member
    edited August 2012

    @breton said: What's the difference for me, as a customer, between Xen and KVM? Except OS installs from ISOs?

    Xen PV is not full virtual, is paravirtualization and as such has lower overhead and the kernel is tweaked specially for Xen. Xen's equivalent for KVM is XenHVM, both use qemu. You can still run any app you want on Xen-PV, no windows sadly. M

    I am only representing myself :)

  • jcalebjcaleb Moderator
    edited August 2012

    @prometeus said: Why are pushing back xen?

    For me personally, I lost confidence with troubles I read from LET. E.g. the one experienced by SD

  • bretonbreton Member
    edited August 2012

    @Maounique said: Xen PV is not full virtual, is paravirtualization and as such has lower overhead and the kernel is tweaked specially for Xen. Xen's equivalent for KVM is XenHVM, both use qemu.

    So, again - as for a customer, running his 3 sites and 1 jabber server, what difference does it make for me? 5% more perfomance?

  • @breton said: 5% more perfomance?

    Could be more, depending on app, but yeah, performance is the most important gain. M

    I am only representing myself :)

  • @Maounique said:

    Could be more, depending on app, but yeah, performance is the most important gain.

    /me now looking at http://blog.xen.org/index.php/2011/11/29/baremetal-vs-xen-vs-kvm-redux/ , benchmarks by Xen community, where KVM and Xen+patches work pretty simillar in terms of performance.

  • @breton said: /me now looking at http://blog.xen.org/index.php/2011/11/29/baremetal-vs-xen-vs-kvm-redux/ , benchmarks by Xen community, where KVM and Xen+patches work pretty simillar in terms of performance.

    There you see the xen-HVM flavor. That is the virtualization done with the support of specific hardware extensions built into modern CPU. Xen-PV is a bit different as it doesn't require hw support but use custom kernels.

    IperWeb & Prometeus, Hosting Provider since 1997. iwStack cloud infrastructure
  • @prometeus said: There you see the xen-HVM flavor. That is the virtualization done with the support of specific hardware extensions built into modern CPU. Xen-PV is a bit different as it doesn't require hw support but use custom kernels.

    There is some kind of HVMPV. Dunno what's that.

  • @breton said: There is some kind of HVMPV. Dunno what's that.

    it's HVM + paravirtualized drivers. It's like KVM with virtio modules / drivers

    IperWeb & Prometeus, Hosting Provider since 1997. iwStack cloud infrastructure
  • MaouniqueMaounique Member
    edited August 2012

    Xen-HVM is more or less similar with KVM, from end-user point of view, Xen-PV, on the other hand, is the virtualization where the kernel is aware it is running in a virtual environment and doesnt even need AMD-V or Intel-VT enabled in the CPU. It is some kind of a container with own kernel cooperating with the host instead of a container without kernel relying on host kernel to do the job as in OVZ. You have advantages over OVZ, you can put own modules in the kernel without having to ask the host, peripherals are virtualized, so you don't have to "invent" devices for VPN as in OVZ, but it has higher overhead than OVZ, however lower than KVM.

    "Paravirtualisation is always better.

    In PV, VM will aware of that IO should be handled by host and VM will generate a direct call to the Hypervisor. But the Guest OS should be modified and installed with the drivers (block and network) through which VM kernel will directly call hypervisor.

    In FV, there is no need for the guest to be modified but the Guest should be given the emulated devices (BIOS, block,network) which VM Kernel will generate the normal system call with emulated devices which call further the hypervisor. Emulation consumes lot of CPU time therefore VM will slow in handling the IO"

    M.

    I am only representing myself :)

  • 1 or 2 for me. Even more to 1 because is PV, as @Maounique says.

  • SpiritSpirit Administrator
    edited August 2012

    @AnthonySmith said: 1) Don't stop doing Xen you crazy fool..!

    You're doing well with that and we like it, so don't stop doing what work for you as well for us you crazy fool..!

  • flyfly Member

    in addition to security. You can't enter a xen / kvm container like you can with ovz. However, unfortunately most providers here use solusvm, which means you gave them your root password.

  • @fly

    So, you don't change your password?? ¬¬

  • @Maounique said: Xen-HVM is more or less [...]

    //_-. I know all that technical stuff. As a buyer, I don't care about it. All I care about: 1. Whether my apps will run and how will they run; 2. How error-proof is this technology, i.e. how often and hard I will notice bugs; 3. How the technology is supported by it's authors. Like considering service quality when buying a car. 4. Goodness of overall design, whether it's considered kosher or not. 5. Other features, which can affect me. Like memory overcommitment in OVZ.

  • 2 for sure. Kvm is as close as you can get to a dedi and i love it. Xen hvm has some issues.

    I use http://tuxlite.com to configure all my VPSes and I love it!

  • I'm going to be offering KVM, but I dont think I will do a 2 dollar 128mb version of it because of all the spammers tends to attract.

  • SpiritSpirit Administrator
    edited August 2012

    @djvdorp said: Kvm is as close as you can get to a dedi and i love it.

    This false "I am in control" KVM trend is lately so widely spread over LET while I bet that 99.9% of us, users can do everything what we need with good old stable great peforming Xen-PV :) Apart from wasting my time and playing with own ISOs I haven't found even one advantage with KVM over Xen - from user perspective. When I order VPS for something more serious I prefer to set it up and then use long term not to play with virtualization itself.

  • @Spirit said: great peforming Xen-PV :)

    Personally, (and this is 100% personal preference), I prefer KVM over Xen or OpenVZ. Its just how I got used to it and I just feel like I can do more with KVM than Xen, but hey that's just me.

    Catalyst Host - Pie Approved!
  • SpiritSpirit Administrator
    edited August 2012

    More in what way? Imho. there's more "kvm masturbators" than people which would really prefer this type of virtualization above others because their long term serious work.

    Thanked by 1JoeMerit
  • @Spirit said: More in what way?

    Well I said feel not actually do haha.

    Catalyst Host - Pie Approved!
    Thanked by 1Spirit
  • SpiritSpirit Administrator

    @HalfEatenPie said: Well I said feel not actually do haha.

    Exactly this is what I am trying to say :) Thank you.

    Thanked by 1HalfEatenPie
  • @Spirit: although I did hear Xen is probably the most stable Virtualization technology so far. Although I personally have not confirmed it.

    Catalyst Host - Pie Approved!
  • So to be honest OpenVZ was never really going to happen unless someone could put a good argument forward.

    What I am hearing is don't stop Xen PV just yet and KVM would be a good option.

    Xen has been completely solid but I think KVM is a natural successor, and from what I hear SolusVM will support KVM templates imminently so ISO's will be optional not standard.

    Inception Hosting Xen VPS in UK | NL | Miami | Phoenix | Windows/Linux/BSD | also check out lowendspirit €3.00 p/year OpenVZ in UK/NL/IT/USA

  • Go for it, sounds like uou made up your mind

  • @fly

    waiting to hear from Snel regarding the SLA's on the new DC, if its good then I will do it fairly soon, if not then I will be putting out any new services from the UK in Wildcard Newcastle UK.

    Inception Hosting Xen VPS in UK | NL | Miami | Phoenix | Windows/Linux/BSD | also check out lowendspirit €3.00 p/year OpenVZ in UK/NL/IT/USA

  • @AnthonySmith You might want to take a look at the Rotterdam Internet Exchange data center (in rotterdam). Most of the hospitals I worked at have racks there (Maasstad, Aafje, ErasmusMC, Haga ziekenhuis, Laurens). Also a friend of mine has a rack there for his hosting... http://www.r-ix.nl/content/

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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  • I'd say don't stop with Xen. Inception hosting has been the best Xen hosting I have been with so far.

    Ovz vs KVM, I'd say KVM.

  • IntcsIntcs Member
    edited August 2012

    Big OVZ discounts are easier to get, everything else seems better for KVM (even some big offers too), I go more with OVZ to be honest and with providers that I trust, but I'd like to do a transform sometime, well maybe :p ..

    Please beware that his parents are now using the membership to post for their own, together with our precious son..

  • MaouniqueMaounique Member
    edited August 2012

    @breton said: //_-. I know all that technical stuff. As a buyer, I don't care about it. All I care about: 1. Whether my apps will run and how will they run; 2. How error-proof is this technology, i.e. how often and hard I will notice bugs; 3. How the technology is supported by it's authors. Like considering service quality when buying a car. 4. Goodness of overall design, whether it's considered kosher or not. 5. Other features, which can affect me. Like memory overcommitment in OVZ.

    1. Your apps will run similarly in Xen-PV compared with KVM. Xen-HVM is similar to KVM regarding apps and speed, but Xen_PV is faster especially in IO. Not to mention should be cheaper because of overhead.
    2. Xen-PV is much better tested and older technology, you should notice bugs less often.
    3. Xen is fully supported, however, redhat withdrew support from it. Debian is fully behind Xen as well as commercial vendors such as Citrix.
    4. Here I don't know what you mean by kosher. From what I see ppl go with either container or full virtualization. Xen-PV is a middle-ground, closer to full virtualization, tho. I find the design solid for the time it appeared. Now, with the power increased many folds in CPUs, we can afford to throw more power at KVM for the benefits of full virtualization, because the main bottleneck in big servers is the storage, and a lot of CPU goes wasted.
    5. I dont know what features could affect you. Regarding memory, it can be overcommited in all technologies, including VMWare. M

    I am only representing myself :)

  • My vote goes to (2). Not sure about Xen, but I can't get L2TP/IPsec (VPN for IOS devices) to work on OpenVZ.

  • LV_MattLV_Matt Member
    edited August 2012

    Xen has been completely solid but I think KVM is a natural successor, and from what I hear SolusVM will support KVM templates imminently so ISO's will be optional not standard.

    I believe its in beta now, but no template syncing is available for it yet so its a PIA.

    LoveVPS - 512MB RAM - 15 GB RAID 10 SSD KVM VPS from $7.00/mo - Intel Xeon CPUs - We provide KVM Virtual Servers with love!

  • I'd say get rid of Xen. I've never seen much point in it. If you want cheap and Linux and don't need a custom kernel / modules, you can use OVZ for just about anything. If you need Windows or *BSD, or a custom kernel, then you can pay more and use KVM. A provider offering Xen in addition to OVZ and KVM, especially a small provider, is likely spread too thin and can't be an expert in all of them.

    Lead Developer - HostGuard Control Panel

  • @LV_Matt I never bothered with SolusVM's template sync method in the first place to be honest.

    @NickM The point is basically everything you mentioned before KVM was more widely available, I agree with the no point in offering them all apart from the differing price points will suite multiple markets but really its not worth the investment in that many new nodes all at once.

    Inception Hosting Xen VPS in UK | NL | Miami | Phoenix | Windows/Linux/BSD | also check out lowendspirit €3.00 p/year OpenVZ in UK/NL/IT/USA

  • flyfly Member
    edited August 2012

    stay away from the openvz clusterfuck, please.

    if you do go kvm, will you do upgrades from legacy xen packages -> new kvm package? Same price / a little bit more money is good.

  • Vote for Xen! My (free) EC2 also use Xen.

  • ZenZen Member

    KVM. I've always preferred it, super stable!

    Transparency: I work for Nodisto and all subsequent businesses: Backupsy, VPSDime, Winity, Cloudive, and DotVPS. My opinions represented through posts on this forum are mine and not the opinions of these businesses unless explicitly stated otherwise.
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