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Comments
Well said.
@Dilt
Since when? I think you must be confusing 'oversold' with 'overselling'
There is no 'sort of' to it, you either are or you aren't.
I guess what we can take from you guys participation here is that you oversell.
The difference is the person torrenting legit files isn't going to use near the disk space that the person torrenting music did. You don't count on terminating for DMCA for every user that uses over X disk space like you are wording this. You account for some legit users to use all of their disk space by a formula you generate from experience and education.
We guarantee the guaranteed RAM. The nodes are sold so that each VM can use it's guaranteed RAM without fear. Burst is offered 'as available', and is not guaranteed. While it's there, it can be used.
If you don't comprehend what Dilt and I just explained, I suppose -shrug-. Take it how you will, but no misinterpretation will change fact. Such as my misreading of your 'abuse' statements. I could take from what you said that you consider resource usage to be abuse... but I'd rather accept your explanation that this is not the case.
Not necessarily true. We have plenty of perfectly legit clients that not only use their allotted HDD space, but purchase addons because they need more.
Like I said above, I was hoping you would clarify that point, as it sounded before like you considered resource usage to be a terminable offense.
Please use correct pronouns.. "I" is the correct one there, not "You". We don't take it for granted that users will consume less than what they paid for; we base our business model around providing what we sold. I'm not saying that's the right way to do things, that everyone should do it like that. That's simply our choice to make, and you have no ground to just make assumptions on how we run our business.
@Aldyric if YOU didn't then how would YOU sell your burst ram, and your bandwidth? If only 1000 people were on your 512 plan and you sold nothing else and everyone used all of their bandwidth you would be pushing 3000mbit/sec for just those 1000 customers.
We sell our VPSes based on how much RAM is in the node, minus overhead. So if there's 40GB of RAM that isn't for overhead, and we're selling 1GB VPSes, we'd put 40 on there. The individual VPSes would have access to 2GB of RAM total (1GB guaranteed, with an additional burst of 1GB permitted). If everyone on the node is using their 1GB of guaranteed RAM and the node is 100% sold, any additional requests for RAM would be rejected by the OS/use swap (which would mean their additional 1GB of burst RAM would be unavailable).
I'm going to call this trollbait.
You would be surprised, especially with how many parts of the gaming industry have embraced torrenting. As an example, the recent Humble Bundles provided torrents for all games and their soundtracks.
Also, it's hard to be sure if a user's files are actually 'legitimate' or not unless you verify with the copyright holder if the user has permission to torrent those files. If your company supports client confidentiality, then you'll have to rely on legitimate DMCA notices to tell. Not to even mention the morality of peeking into a client's personal information to see what files they are torrenting to begin with.
I have to agree, we are overselling our bandwidth. We'd be pushing 6000mbit/sec if 1000 VPSes used 2000GB of bandwidth every month. If you think about it, we're also overselling our CPUs as well. And someone could easily eat up all the iops available.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(2000*1000)+GB+in+one+month+in+megabits+per+second
Edit: Oh wait, 512 as in the burst ram. Yeah, that would be 3000mbps, that plan is 1000GB/mo.
And what happens when some people that don't normally use their full space start using it? There's not really an equation that could determine how a the clients of the nodes will use their space. In my opinion, I don't see it fit if a company says you are able to use X amount of space, but then later on you are not able to use that space due to the fact that other people allocated the space before you, and your guaranteed space is not so guaranteed. I have some VMS where I'll be using 6GB one day, and the very next day I'm at 49GB out of my 50GB allocation.
Some small profits versus company reputation.
@Insidiea it's impossible that everyone on that node will start using ALL of their resources at the same time.
Please see my statement about bandwidth.
People have different opinions of overselling...
Lets say your selling 16gb of ram. (We wont count other resources for the sake of keeping this simple)
You Sell 16 people 1gb... Ok thats SOME peoples idea of not overselling.......
Now you have the avg person using less than 256mb of their ram, and maybe 1 person using close to their full 1gb.. So in reality lets say your using 2gb of ram on avg... and peaking out at 4gb of ram at highest usage!!? So if you sell another 16 accounts, and they avg 4gb and peak out 8gb your still not technically over selling in my opinion.
I understand TECHNICALLY it might be overselling but whatever... imo your NOT overselling if your still peaking out at half of the available resources even if youve sold double the available resources..
We don't sell burst ram. Like I said before, Guaranteed RAM is always available. Burst ram can be freely used when available.
We set generously high bandwidth limits. Like I've explained several times before... the bandwidth limits on on our plans are exactly that; limits. The amount of bandwidth we allow each plan to use before the service is suspended; and must either wait for the reset date or pickup an extension. We make no secret about being on a 2gbit line in Coresite.
It doesn't take everyone. Depends on how badly you oversell your resources, all it may take is a handful. Even if 3/4 of your clients could max out resources before the node hits its limit, that's simply a chance we will not take.
@Aldryic so you do oversell your bandwidth then?
Seems like you are taking a chance there.
Reiterating how you customers bandwidth is a limit does 0 good. All of their resources are a limit. The fact still stands that if 1000 of your 512 users use all their bandwidth you will be pushing 3000mbit/sec
@Aldryic Ditto. What customer paid for should get it. If you can not do it and use shaddy godaddy theory, then why sell limited vps? Sell unlimited vps with fair usage clause.
No, we impose bandwidth limits. For example, a 128KVM with no addons may only use 500GB per month. The alternative to this is simply removing the limits and making the plans unmetered.
@Aldryic you are dodging the fact and trying to twist it around somehow.
If 1000 of your 512mb ($3.50/mo) users use ALLL of their bandwidth then they will be pushing 3000mbit/sec
For example: A 512mb node may use 1000gb of bandwidth in a month. That is equivalent to 3mb/s. Multiply that by 1000 users and that's 3000mb/s
It's no secret that you have a 2gbit to coresite so then you would be oversold right?
Actually, just the opposite of that. I clearly stated that we are not selling guaranteed bandwidth (after all, you cannot guarantee constant speeds to every client around the globe, to claim otherwise is utter folly), that we impose bandwidth limits. You are the one attempting to twist my words to some needless argument.
I said it a few posts back, I'll say it again. You have your way of selling resources, we have ours. Never once did I claim that either was right or wrong; I simply wanted clarification on a few of your statements. Any particular reason you choose to turn that into some kind of fight?
I think this has turned into another of Aldryics "i'm better than you" threads, so "everyone should use BuyVM instead of compeitiors". I don't think it's any secret many providers oversell, financially it makes sense, and personally I could care less as long as it
1)doesn't hurt the performance of the node i'm on too bad
2)I can access/use every bit of resources promised to me when I signed up.
Even still I get the fact VPS is still sharing resources so I have to be a good neighbor, but there still needs to be some breathing room otherwise users may as well be on slow(and probably oversold) hostgator shared hosting plans :P
Maybe one day when I really need to slam the CPU and disk I may just get a dedi server :P
I think you are trying to play with the wording a little too much. You are saying that you sell pretty much the same way we all do, but load nodes based on guaranteed ram, so if a 48gb node will contain less that 48gb of guaranteed service, but when you add in burst, you might have sold 90gb on the node. Which I call effective resource management. I do know disk is rarely an issue, 1 cuz people just don't use what they are given often, and Fran loves to overbuy disk anyway since they are cheap as hell.
I can't really keep a straight face while reading this thread, watching people argue fiercely while on the same side of the fence and trying to make it look different. And then the general public chiming in here and there because they saw the word oversell, people, get over the over use of the word being seriously negative, it isn't, but overloading is the condition that you are really trying to avoid. If you re getting what you need from your provider who is actively managing their resources so as to not provide you with overloaded resources, wtf do you care?
Aaah, I was wondering when the peanut gallery would chime in. I suppose I should've known you just couldn't resist stirring up drama instead of engaging in normal conversation.
2)I can access/use every bit of resources promised to me when I signed up.
100% correct. Like I've said thrice now, I never insinuated that reasonable oversell is wrong/bad, it's simply a practice we do not follow.
@Aldyric and we keep stating that you do follow that practice but you keep denying it for some reason. I don't get how you state that you do not sell guaranteed bandwidth but you do. Speed to people across the globe is irrelevant when you are selling it by the GB. You are also basically saying 'we know that some of our clients aren't going to use the bandwidth because the speed to their location isn't optimal so we can sell more than our pipe can handle'
@Aldryic
Everyone is simply saying different things.
By SOME peoples standards you are clearly overselling. You can Not give everyone of your clients the amount of bandwidth that your "limits" are set at. Its simply not possible. Not with a profit at least.
You are simply arguing that you DO NOT oversell, which by some peoples standards you do, and by other peoples standards you may not..
I agree its not really over selling because the ODDS of everyone using that bandwidth is practically non existent.. However you are selling more bandwidth (and I'd be willing to bet other resources) then you can physically produce with a profit....
But AGAIN, as I mentioned earlier... If the resources are always available.. its not really overselling in my opinion.. But technically, yes it is overselling.
You are correct sir. But we make it plainly clear that burst is 'when available', not guaranteed. I don't consider that a play on words so much as just being honest. If you wish to call burst an oversold resource that's fine.. I just don't agree with being able to oversell something you're not guaranteeing.
Aye, unexperienced opinion does tend to get aggravating. I suppose I should've just PMed my concerns to Corey directly though, and saved everyone else all of the drama associated with (intentionally) misinterpreted phrasing.
You two aren't going to catch us with our pants down here so stop trying
Francisco
I've read the "normal conversation" you're having, which consists of you twisting Coreys words to try and throw his company under the bus, as well as probably most providers on here.
Give me a break...comments like this
Is going right for the jugular. Yeah you just said "reasonable overselling" to try and cover yourself, but you know full well, you're how you say, "slinging mud".
Kinda changing sides to the middle now, but if you do oversell, do it correctly, so where the customer never notices that they aren't able to use their full hdd/ram allocation.
If it comes to where the customer isn't able to utilize their full allocations, then it usually leaves a bad image of your company in a clients head.
Maybe you couldn't but we got offered a full 10Gbit for ~$7k/m if push came to shove.
Francisco
Noone was trying to catch you with your pants down - @Aldyric came saying you didn't oversell anything when it's obvious you do.
If we ran out of bandwidth i'd simply go buy more to give us a buffer, I wouldn't say 'welp, SJ is only getting 2Gbit, deal with it'.
Only an idiot buys 10Gbit of transit when he's barely hitting 15% of the commit :P I can take that cash and simply pocket it for other fun things like vacation for the staff.
Francisco
Nope, I didn't call it an oversold resource, I believe my words were "Effective resource management"
@taipres - instead of trying to troll, how about you get some experience in the fields you like to bicker about before trying to put on big boy pants and wading in. All I need to say.
I could state that you use apples as suppositories, but doubtless you would deny it, no? I'm going to leave it at that, and assume that you can make the connection.
Because that 128KVM isn't guaranteed to use all 500GB, period. Unless the user is going to sit there and repeatedly hammer cachefly files, you cannot guarantee transit outside your network, period. But what I can guarantee is that once that VPS reaches 500GB, it will be shut down until the counter resets, or an addon is applied.
Let me say that one more time, just to make sure you understand. We do not guarantee that the VPS will use all 500GB. We CLEARLY state that 500GB is the limit for that plan (as opposed to burying it as a TOS clause, etc).
Please take care to read both sides. See the above two paragraphs for explanation on this.
/edit
EVERYONES argument here is REALLY about what is overselling? Its simply a matter of what you consider overselling and what you dont consider overselling.